Why they distrust us

[quote="Himself] Frankly, I suspect there is a large component left out of the list, stabilizing oil production and pricing, which I would put at a 80% value of the motivation here. [/quote]

Following this logic then why did the US not react the same during the OPEC crisis. IF you honestly believe that this is all about oil then wouldn't Canada make a better target. We have more Oil than Iraq (oilsands), we are closer and need to liberated from high taxation :oops: .
 
There is always an OPEC crisis from what I can tell, which one did you have in mind. :)

Iraq is an easier target politically, they can get away with it. Besides, the US and Canada have too many connections, arsing up our economy would arse up theirs, we already sell them our oil and they are not worried about not having enough cash to pay for it.

I said I suspect it's about oil, or if it's not oil, there is a missing 80% of the picture we are not seeing because the stated reasons about possible threats and disarming make little sense. Sudden concerns about humanitarianism don't wash either, they would have taken care of that the last time they were in Iraq if that were such a pressing concern for them. Or do they just sit on it for 12 years until it's expedient and they need an excuse to invade?
 
Himself said:
...because the stated reasons about possible threats and disarming make little sense.

Not to me they don't.

Sudden concerns about humanitarianism don't wash either, they would have taken care of that the last time they were in Iraq if that were such a pressing concern for them. Or do they just sit on it for 12 years until it's expedient and they need an excuse to invade?

Did you read my last post at all that outlined the reason we are going in, vs. the means of achieving that goal, vs. the consequences of achieving that goal?

Read it again.

Furthermore, the LAST time we went in, the UN stated "Purpose" of that conflict was to drive Iraq out of Kuwait. That's it. Driving Iraq out of Kuwait doesn't necessitate a regime change for Iraq, so there was no reason to have "humanitarian concerns" for the Iraqi people, other than making civilian losses as minimal as possible during the conflict itself.

We sat on it for 12 years, and now are FORCED to "liberate" Iraq, because the only option to guarantee disarmament is to oust the existing regime.
 
I think that this discussion has gotten away from it's initial issue of why there appears to be a distrust of the US in international circles. I would like to address certain points that verious people made (hopefully in a lucid manner). I believe that there are 2 totally separate points to be made here.

I believe that Saddam is not in compliance, however I am not convinced that the threat of "dire consequences" is legal grounds for war, however there maybe a historical precedent implying just that. In addition, the threat of military action may have been made more clear in previous resolutions with which I am not familiar. So I am willing to give the US the benefit of the legal doubt that they are within their rights to invade Iraq and remove Saddam.

That having been said, I believe that for most of the world, this is seen as a bigger issue than simply the removal of Saddam, that issue being the new direction of US foreign policy and it's dealings with other nations, which is at best clumsy and at worst bullying.

Everyone that I speak to is convinced that the US had unilaterally decided to invade Iraq LAST YEAR, UN be damned. To quote Zakaria:

The president got high marks for his superb speech at the Security Council last September, urging the United Nations to get serious about enforcing its resolutions on Iraq and to try inspections one last time. Unfortunately, that appeal had been preceded by speeches by Cheney and comments by Rumsfeld calling inspections a sham—statements that actually contradicted American policy—and making clear that the administration had decided to go to war.

In a very real way, the UN represents the world as a whole. In effect, the US was saying screw the views of the other 190(?) countries, we are the superpower here. Further to that, I heard a discussion on 1 of the networks where the question was asked, "will the UN have the right to veto US foreign policy?" To that I respond, if that foreign policy authorizes invasion of a soverign nation to remove its head-of-state I say Yes. Of course it maybe argued that the UN had already given that authorization in this case, but the question in general and the answer are still valid.

The bullying I mentioned is also described:

Having traveled around the world and met with senior government officials in dozens of countries over the past year, I can report that with the exception of Britain and Israel, every country the administration has dealt with feels humiliated by it. “Most officials in Latin American countries today are not anti-American types,â€￾ says Jorge Castaneda, the reformist foreign minister of Mexico, who resigned two months ago. “We have studied in the United States or worked there. We like and understand America. But we find it extremely irritating to be treated with utter contempt.â€￾

It comes across even more glaringly in the sentences directly following:

Last fall, a senior ambassador to the United Nations, in a speech supporting America’s position on Iraq, added an innocuous phrase that could have been seen as deviating from that support. The Bush administration called up his foreign minister and demanded that he be formally reprimanded within an hour.

This sort of behaviour can only engender very ill will towards the Bush administration, and by extension the US as a whole.

I leave 1 final point regarding the utter diplomatic clumsiness of this administration. Tony Blair has been risking political suicide to stand with George W. on the premise that British military help is absolutely vital to the removal of Saddam. At least, that's what he was trying to convince the media, British public, and members of his own party anyway. After the announcement that that British same military help might not be possible after all, the US Sec Def asserts in a press conference that they didn't really need British help anyway, thus leaving poor Mr. Blair to twist in the wind.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I had to get that off my chest. Please feel free to comment, debate and shoot me down where necessary.

Handbrake2.
 
I'm still unsure of how Rumsfeld's comment was interpreted as dissing Blair or the British Army. I thought it was a polite way of letting Blair off the hook, meaning there was no need for Blair to lose his job over military help that America probably doesn't need. I didn't hear the statement in context, though, so perhaps I'm missing something.
 
I don't understand why people think this is different. What percentage of the military actions of the past 60 years have been sanctioned by the UN? What percentage of them were actually a response to an attack on the homeland?

France invaded Africa twice in the last year, not because African countries attacked France, and not because the UNSC voted to authorize it, but simply because they wanted to protect some civilians.

Did Panama attack us before we invaded? How about Kosovo?

How can you really say this is a new direction of US foreign policy. Past US military conflicts have been mostly unilateral. Many of them have been for regime change or preemption.

The only real change today is a change of PERCEPTION. I can't help but wonder that if the US didn't go through the UN and if France and Germany had been supportive, instead of divisive, public opinion in Europe would be different and we wouldn't even be talking about unilateral vs multilateralism. Clinton took on multiple unilateral adventures, but didn't face heavy EU criticism, because Clinton was silver tongued and simply made the Europeans feel like they mattered, when in fact, the US still does what it wants.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Did you read my last post at all that outlined the reason we are going in, vs. the means of achieving that goal, vs. the consequences of achieving that goal?

Read it again.

Furthermore, the LAST time we went in, the UN stated "Purpose" of that conflict was to drive Iraq out of Kuwait. That's it. Driving Iraq out of Kuwait doesn't necessitate a regime change for Iraq, so there was no reason to have "humanitarian concerns" for the Iraqi people, other than making civilian losses as minimal as possible during the conflict itself.

We sat on it for 12 years, and now are FORCED to "liberate" Iraq, because the only option to guarantee disarmament is to oust the existing regime.

Since when has the US given a flying frig about the UN other than out of political opportunism? They are a part of the UN only when it does what they want, otherwise they don't give a frig. They play political games with being a part of the UN for domestic PR reasons, it's a joke.

If they US doesn't take the UN seriously, then I don't take anything they say regarding playing within UN rules too seriously with regards to motivation.
 
Himself said:
Since when has the US given a flying frig about the UN other than out of political opportunism?

Since when has ANYONE given a frig about the UN except out of political opportunism?

They are a part of the UN only when it does what they want, otherwise they don't give a frig. They play political games with being a part of the UN for domestic PR reasons, it's a joke.

I would mostly agree with that, particularly though, in the cases of using force. And I would consider it the same for any other nation.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Since when has ANYONE given a frig about the UN except out of political opportunism?

well from what i have seen it happens just as much as anyone winds up given a fig about any political institution except out of political opportunism, but just even though we have our share of bad seeds there is also plenty of good left in us. ;)
 
kyleb said:
well from what i have seen it happens just as much as anyone winds up given a fig about any political institution except out of political opportunism, but just even though we have our share of bad seeds there is also plenty of good left in us. ;)

Pretty much agreed.

My point is, "political opportunism" and even "unilateralism" is so often labeled on the U.S. as if this is something uniqe to us.

And to further clarify...the actions taken out of political opportunism or unilateralism, does not mean they are by definition bad...whoever the opportunist is. Each situation should be judged based on its own merits.
 
Pete said:
I'm still unsure of how Rumsfeld's comment was interpreted as dissing Blair or the British Army. I thought it was a polite way of letting Blair off the hook, meaning there was no need for Blair to lose his job over military help that America probably doesn't need. I didn't hear the statement in context, though, so perhaps I'm missing something.

Well Rumsfeld just has this way with words you see...
 
i think you need to update your codecs if you want to hear a complete manipulation of video clips intended to garner support for the pro war movement. if you want to see another such video that takes the other side of the issue, check this out:

http://www.fuckitall.com/bsh/
 
I am running an nforce2 board, I don't dare arse with audio codecs. :)

To get back on topic, the US is distrusted because it has no checks and balances to represent the views of the rest of the world. Imagine a one party system of government for the world, where all the members of the government come from one region. That increasingly seems to be the role the US is giving itself, a creeping tendency towards imposing a world government. The US doesn't need the UN or any international treaties, it doesn't need any other countries for what it wants, hence they don't sign any international agreements. There is no give and take, because they don't need anything, there is little compromise possible when one party holds all the cards. Weaker nations need cooperation with other countries to get what they need or value, they may also play politics with some issues, but that is more a luxury for larger countries. By and large they want to get something done that they can't otherwise, there is some sincerity to it. the US is in permanent don't call us, we'll call you mode.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
My point is, "political opportunism" and even "unilateralism" is so often labeled on the U.S. as if this is something uniqe to us.

i think you are taken such labeling far to personal; most people around the world know that there are far deeper pits of such treachery in many parts of this world. the reason that we often get pointed at as the example is not so much due to the depths which we have sunk but more due to our ever widening girth.

Joe DeFuria said:
And to further clarify...the actions taken out of political opportunism or unilateralism, does not mean they are by definition bad...whoever the opportunist is. Each situation should be judged based on its own merits.

i disagree entirely, the opportunist is merely confused and the actions of such a person are often far from good. while an opportunist can do much good for humanity, my experience suggests overwhelmingly that it is generally not within the nature of one holding such a disposition when they belive they can get away with doing otherwise.
 
kyleb said:
i disagree entirely, the opportunist is merely confused and the actions of such a person are often far from good.

How does that disagree with me entirely?

All I said was that the specific actions of an opportunist are not be definition bad. They can be bad or good. You're saying the same thing....unless you're saying that you don't care aboiut the "results" of a particular action, ONLY certain motivations behind it? That would fit in with liberal thinking....

I do disagree with an opportunist being "confused." They know exactly what they are trying to do...they just try to confuse everyone else by selling it in a way that's more acceptable.
 
it disagrees with you on your basis that "...whoever the opportunist is [bad]" as i stated directly and i even went so fair as to explain why i think otherwise. it would be nice if you could respect my opinion enough to at least see acknowledge the difference in opinion.
 
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