Why the Nitpicking Desperation here to prove PS3 much more

[patsu]

The nitpickings you referred to are due to a lack of in-depth, official documentation on Xenos and Cell

Oh my friend there is alot of information on the CELL. Understanding it is another issue. There's so much more information on the CELL than any other chip (GPU or CPU wise) going into any next-gen system.

Heh heh, but of course. Let me rephrase. Few know how the Cell processor will be used in the context of PS 3 programming. Information available on the web are still too high-level and general.

 

[Titanio]

I don't see how 1 CELL can handle all of the vertex processing and also do great physics and AI and other CPU taxing stuff...especially working with Next gen hardware.

This is still an open question, since we've little raw data on how well Cell performs with these tasks. I think though you could spend a reasonable number of SPEs on vertex work before it detrimentally affects performance vs competing console CPUs, however. And you shouldn't need many SPEs to do a lot on the vertex side - it should be an "ideal" for SPEs.

In other words, I think you probably will be able to spend on graphics with Cell and still have enough left over to be competitive (or still more than competitive) with other CPUs for the rest.

 

[Arty]

As you can see I havent been around here for long, I read that in one of the articles around E3 time-frame. Would you mind pointing me towards a post rather than picking on me ?

Well pointing you to links would that me forever to find so let me just say this. Sony was shooting high. Very high with the CELL. They initially wanted the 1 terabyte of floating point power. Well as time and money went on at this point in time getting a chip like that would take extra time, would be too costly, and the PS3 would be too big if they were to use 4 CELL chips (Kinda like how MS is using 3 chips).

And instead of using a CELL chip as a GPU, they decided early in the stage of development that using a Nvidia GPU with all their tools would be a better fit. Along with plenty of other reason to go with a dedicated GPU.

So in the end Sony going with a GPU is not them saying "Our CELL chip kind of sucks". Not at all. Its much deeper than that.

Well I agree that its a mixture of both: CELL not meeting/satisfying the Sony's sky-high specs that they hoped for initially + bringing RSX would make it easier to program for.

 

[Nicked]

I will go with the majority and say it definitely seems there is a skew towards X360 here...even this thread.

Given that Sony initially intended that PS3 could be powered only by the CELL and then later on adding the RSX gives me a reason to believe it is not as stellar as the accompanying hype

:|
Maybe its you wanting a reason.
Sony patenting a 2 CELL-chip configuration doesn't mean they weren't exploring other options. You don't just suddenly reach a stage towards the end in R&D of your next multi-billion dollar console and say "shit, better call up nvidia, we have a problem".

 

[Tap In]

I think the Devs on the board would LOL at this thread.

they will probably have their hands full just getting things to run to their expectations on these new systems for the next two years... let alone getting all there is to get out of multiple threads or the RSX or Xenos as some are speculating.


I think Shifty may have it right that we will see a bigger difference later on toward the last year or two of the system lives.

 

[Titanio]

Well I agree that its a mixture of both: CELL not meeting/satisfying the Sony's sky-high specs that they hoped for initially + bringing RSX would make it easier to program for.

Cell not meeting/satisfying Sony's expectation as a GPU reflects nothing on its pedigree as a CPU.

The Cell-GPU was to include additional hardware for pixel processing and so forth - things "normal" cell hardware would be less inclined towards vs a GPU - and it's as likely performance issues revolved around that than the rest of the chip.

It should be said, though, that Cell (even the non-tweaked "CPU" version) would apparently be quite good at graphics anyway, but when up against the best a leading graphics company can offer in terms of refined and dedicated hardware, the odds should never have been on it to emerge the winner.

As CPUs and GPUs converge (and performance increases dramatically), it's certainly possible that it might make sense then. And maybe Sony can enlist NVidia to help with the integration of their tech into that extra hardware on the proposed Cell GPU ("pixel engines" etc)

 

[onanie]

I will go with the majority and say it definitely seems there is a skew towards X360 here...even this thread.

indeed, the skew may not be apparent to the x360 camp if they feel that they have always been arguing for "sameness" between the hardware.

Nevertheless, they are motivated to fight for "sameness" - even that would be a "win" for them.

 

[one]

It's because there isn't much known about what the real life performance of the CELL architecture is.

Though it's not a game code (but usable for realistic wave simulation) we've observed the realworld performance of it like this FFT benchmark for things that fit in Local Store and things that don't
http://www.power.org/news/events/barcelona/11_chow.pdf
while we know virtually nothing about the realworld performance of Xbox 360 CPU.

 

[Acert93]

It's because there isn't much known about what the real life performance of the CELL architecture is.

Though it's not a game code (but usable for realistic wave simulation) we've observed the realworld performance of it like this FFT benchmark for things that fit in Local Store and things that don't
http://www.power.org/news/events/barcelona/11_chow.pdf
while we know virtually nothing about the realworld performance of Xbox 360 CPU.

p.16 is very encouraging.

9 GFLOPs (~35% peak) for library code for a single SPE @ 3.2GHz, and 19 GFLOPs (~75% peak) for assembly code for a single SPE @ 3.2GHz.

Obviously this is not the same as game code or a game, but it is encouraging. The libraries will only get better with time, and over time developers will find more/better ways to multithread and to utilize 7 SPEs.

 

[dukmahsik]

i dunno, it seems a lot more people on here are swayed more towards ps3 because of cell, but that's cool!

 

[Nicked]

i dunno, it seems a lot more people on here are swayed more towards ps3 because of cell, but that's cool!

Thats because your bias is clouding your judgement.
There are a lot of topics about CELL, but most of them is full of people shooting it down (or attempting to).
Wouldn't have it any other way though, its nice to argue system nuances, but at the end of the day we are all gamers who will buy great games whatever console they're on (well, most of us).

 

[LunchBox]

i think people post speculated(?) specifications of ps3 in regards to its processing prowess is because people are just generally excited about the new technology.

The same goes for Xbox 360... people post their findings here because they are excited about the technology.

as far as the nitpicking goes... it's been how it is. Competition brings the best and worse out of everybody. Both factions have been this way.

 

[c0_re]

The answer is simple. It's like this every generation of console or graphics hardware.

exactly, especailly this gen sine it's going to be so close.IMO it's going to come down to who provides the best tool. Especially for the first couple gen of games. On the flip side the PS3 does have alot to live up to after some the things they showed at E3.

 

[TrungGap]

...and the PS3 would be too big if they were to use 4 CELL chips (Kinda like how MS is using 3 chips)....

Since, this is nitpicking thread...MS never used 3 chips...They used 2 chips in the alpha dev kit, but the final hardware is 3 cores.

Sorry many...just had to...okay shoot me, i'm guilty of nitpicking.

 

[TrungGap]

Nitpicking vs playing devil's advocate...

I don't think the majority of the threads/posts here are really nitpicking, but more of playing the devil's advocate. The need of that is when we have uncertainty about a specific platform, and hence you have to compare it to something in which we already have more info about. It's a form of validation of assumption.

x360 was designed with the developer in mind...It's the same type of mentality of all of MS product which is make it easier for entry dev to work with. Make it easier to program for...even if it's less expandable/flexible/extensible. Look at Visual Basic, look how far MS took that product. It has basically built and industry around it. Though, i'm not saying x360 is any less powerful than P$3.

Sorry, for going off on a tangent. Anyway, playing devil's advocate is good. It's good to validation assumptions and review what we think is going on.

 

[Readykilowatt]

Re: Why the Nitpicking Desperation here to prove PS3 much mo

..Powerful than the Xbox 360. All the topics here i see are nitpicking the smallest of details to try to squeeze out some sort of proof that PS3 is much much more than Xbox 360 in everything. GPU, CPU, Memory, whatever

So what if the PS3 is more powerful? The Xbox 360 is no slouch.

 

[one]

The answer is simple. It's like this every generation of console or graphics hardware.

exactly, especailly this gen sine it's going to be so close.

Is Xbox more powerful than GameCube?

 

[Tap In]

Nevertheless, they are motivated to fight for "sameness" - even that would be a "win" for them.

I don't understand anybody "fighting" regarding a piece of electronic equipment.

Just enjoy the technology and the games that result.

 

[c0_re]

/\ exactly I don't underdstand how people aren't excited about both systems, for one we have one system with a never before seen pipeline configuration and a CPU that may go down as the most capable console CPU ever in another. It can'twait, 2 balsy moves by 2 "great" companies

 

[onanie]

Nevertheless, they are motivated to fight for "sameness" - even that would be a "win" for them.

I don't understand anybody "fighting" regarding a piece of electronic equipment.

Just enjoy the technology and the games that result.

Yes, looking at the vehemence with which they beat down anything that could be positive about the PS3. Everyone should consider your advise.