Who is dropping the Next Gen ball?

[djdev]

I was reading over at NEOGAF forums and they had an interesting topic, so I wanted to post it hear to get your opinions:

The 360 and PS3 have so much processing power behind them and certain companies are just completely wasting it. My picks? EA Sports and 2K Sports.

Sports titles are probably the genre that can benefit the most this generation and those two and just squandering it. Technologies like Endorphin, Havok Animation, and Havok Behavior can bring so much realism and unpredictability to sports titles by combining realistic physics and dynamic, AI-driven animation, and they're being completely passed on (up to this point) in favour of doing the same old thing. Instead of any of that, all we're seeing the same brain-dead AI routines, the same boring canned animations, the same balls/pucks bouncing off the same invisible walls around the rim/net...

Last year, fine, limited development times and a learning curve are probably good excuses not to have any of this, but i would have expected to see something next-generation in sports titles by their second iteration beyond physics-based jerseys. Maybe third time's a charm? You'd hope so.



Most japanese developers, besides Capcom, still have to show their next-gen muscles. Namco is of course the worst offender, but Koei and Konami are not far behind. It will take time for these devs to move from the PS2 mindset (push as much polys and particle as possible with little texturing/effects) to the next-gen mindset where shaders effects and proper lighting/shadowing are as important as the rest, not even mentioning normal mapping. Once they finally get it, the results should be incredible. See Lost Odyssey for a japanese game starting to properly use a next-gen engine.
Team Ninja: DOA4 certainly was disappointing, but it looks like DOAX2 is starting to look like a proper next-gen title thanks to a much better lighting and shadowing than before.


Personally, I wholeheartedly agree with these comments.

 

[Corwin_B]

With the 360 being DOA (not the Tecmo one) in Japan, and being the only next-gen machine available right now, the reason why some JP developers haven't started their best next-gen efforts is pretty obvious...

There's also the matter of the PS2 still selling strongly all over the world, so most JP devs probably had their A Team working on PS2 projects until recently. I also think JP developers are waiting to see if the Wii enjoys DS-like success before committing too many resources to 360/PS3 projects.

 

[GB123]

I'm not sure you can say Team Ninja are a regular Japanese dev (PS2-esque) as they have been using shaders on the original xbox for quite sometime.

Plus after seeing Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Lost Planet and Trusty Bell (i forget the western name), i can't say Japanese dev's are all that behind the curve, much of it is probably due to cost and budget when it comes to dev's such as Bandai/Namco.

As for the whole physics thing, you have a good point, but lets face it the majority of casual gamers and gamers in general expect to see more visuals with next gen, next gen is normally about seeing better eye candy, I expect most dev's are concentrating on giving next gen customers what they want first and then perhaps as you say 3rd time's the charm.

End of the day you can't see AI and physics in a screen shot. (at least not an obvious example of them)

 

[djdev]

I'm not sure you can say Team Ninja are a regular Japanese dev (PS2-esque) as they have been using shaders on the original xbox for quite sometime.

Plus after seeing Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Lost Planet and Trusty Bell (i forget the western name), i can't say Japanese dev's are all that behind the curve, much of it is probably due to cost and budget when it comes to dev's such as Bandai/Namco.

As for the whole physics thing, you have a good point, but lets face it the majority of casual gamers and gamers in general expect to see more visuals with next gen, next gen is normally about seeing better eye candy, I expect most dev's are concentrating on giving next gen customers what they want first and then perhaps as you say 3rd time's the charm.

End of the day you can't see AI and physics in a screen shot. (at least not an obvious example of them)

Capcom and studios such as Mistwalker are an exception, I admit. Their games are impressing me, but that's not the majority. I guess we won't see stuff that is really impressive until the ps2 ends it's run and companies stop making games for the lowest denominator.

 

[MasaC]

Nevermind

 

[Angelcurio]

For me, the sports titles are the ones dropping the ball.

After seeing videos of Endorphin in action, its really hard to look back at the fake animations used today in sports titles. Just the football demo let me with my mouth wide open.

 

[djdev]

For me, the sorts titles are the ones dropping the ball.

After seeing videos of Endorphin in action, its really hard to look back at the fake animations used today in sports titles. Just the football demo let me with my mouth wide open.

Exactly, there is tons of potential, but no ones using it except for Lucas Arts. We will see true next gen games from them.

 

[inefficient]

Sorry

Actually, it was me guys. I dropped the Next Gen ball.

 

[22psi]

EA, Namco, Rare

 

[London Geezer]

Actually, it was me guys. I dropped the Next Gen ball.

You are disqualified from the intarweb.

 

[blakjedi]

I dont find the endorphin animations to be the THAT impressive... honestly depending on the title most times one wouldnt even notice...

What needs to be worked on are:

sliding over the environment - Why do we still have frictionless worlds? Force feedback would be useful here.

weak collision detection - why is this not a thing of the past?

True Force feedback - would be useful in determining weight, and momentum as well as density...

 

[Ozymandis]

Is it all right if I say Nintendo? Graphically it's the same old story.

Sports games have been a habitual offender. EA really has no excuse for the lack of production value, as much as they make.

Lost Planet looks really good. Namco of the JP developers is the worst at the moment.

 

[mckmas8808]

I dont find the endorphin animations to be the THAT impressive... honestly depending on the title most times one wouldnt even notice...

What needs to be worked on are:

sliding over the environment - Why do we still have frictionless worlds? Force feedback would be useful here.

weak collision detection - why is this not a thing of the past?

True Force feedback - would be useful in determining weight, and momentum as well as density...

Please, PLEASE don't take this the wrong way but I think Sony was right for the most part. Next-gen doesn't start until they come out with their system.

We will see games look and play WAAAAY differently in 2007 and 2008. The budgets don't justify themselves as much with only one system right now. Saints Row sold over 400k units for the 360 in September which is great!

But can you imagine those sales if they put the game on the PS3 and 360 (given if the PS3 came out this spring instead)? Sales would have been probably over 600,000 units. That would have been $12 million more dollars.

I'm not worried and you 360 guys shouldn't be either. Everything will be good in 2007 across the board.

 

[bRoNx]

I totally agree with what you guys are saying, but I think you're overlooking an important factor here: COST

It's all fine and dandy to get all that stuff implemented, but at what cost? And how much more are these companies gonna have to sell just to stay afloat, if it costs soooo much to develop a sports title (for example). I, for one, would love to see all these tech's incorporated into games, but until we stop bitching about how expensive games are (when they hint at US$60 for example) then I think gamers are to blame for the publishers/developer's hesitance to take that extra (costly) leap!

But I could be totally wrong and all this just came out of 'you-know-where'!?

 

[Angelcurio]

I totally agree with what you guys are saying, but I think you're overlooking an important factor here: COST

It's all fine and dandy to get all that stuff implemented, but at what cost? And how much more are these companies gonna have to sell just to stay afloat, if it costs soooo much to develop a sports title (for example). I, for one, would love to see all these tech's incorporated into games, but until we stop bitching about how expensive games are (when they hint at US$60 for example) then I think gamers are to blame for the publishers/developer's hesitance to take that extra (costly) leap!

But I could be totally wrong and all this just came out of 'you-know-where'!?

I guess that this is where middleware come into play.

Also, another good strategy would be the one used by capcom in which they develop a global engine for all their games and then they tweak it according to the game and platform it is developed for.

 

[22psi]

Please, PLEASE don't take this the wrong way but I think Sony was right for the most part. Next-gen doesn't start until they come out with their system.

I am sorry but I don't understand this statement. Care to explain? 360 is a next gen system same as PS3 and Wii. 360 just happened to launch a year prior to the other two. That would mean next gen has already started. If Wii or PS3 launched ahead of 360, next gen would have started then too.

Sony saying next gen doesn't start until they release PS3 is arrogant hogwash. I am getting a PS3also but I absolutely hate company PR BS.

 

[mckmas8808]

I am sorry but I don't understand this statement. Care to explain? 360 is a next gen system same as PS3 and Wii. 360 just happened to launch a year prior to the other two. That would mean next gen has already started. If Wii or PS3 launched ahead of 360, next gen would have started then too.

Sony saying next gen doesn't start until they release PS3 is arrogant hogwash. I am getting a PS3also but I absolutely hate company PR BS.

Yeah it completly went over your head.

Basically read this post

I totally agree with what you guys are saying, but I think you're overlooking an important factor here: COST

It's all fine and dandy to get all that stuff implemented, but at what cost? And how much more are these companies gonna have to sell just to stay afloat, if it costs soooo much to develop a sports title (for example). I, for one, would love to see all these tech's incorporated into games, but until we stop bitching about how expensive games are (when they hint at US$60 for example) then I think gamers are to blame for the publishers/developer's hesitance to take that extra (costly) leap

The point of that quote is obviously cost. When the cost starts to justify making a next-gen only game and to stop using old gen port 'em up engines then we will start seeing better games (not that they are bad now).

Madden for example. Imagine what EA could do if they didn't have to focus on the old gen games. In 2007 I'm starting to notice alot more "next-gen" only games. The more this happens the better. 360 owners and PS3 owners can rejoice in happiness.

 

[22psi]

Oh ic, next gen won't start until developers use next gen engines. Each of the games on the 360 so far could have been done on current gen. That's one very particular way of looking at things.

 

[London Geezer]

Madden for example. Imagine what EA could do if they didn't have to focus on the old gen games.

... Do what they've been doing for the last decade or so? Releasing the same old games, with the same old gameplay, with different names depending on the year, but with updated graphics, every year with a bit more shine on it, but essentially the same old games we've been playing for years?



Sorry, monthly anti-EA post done.

 

[mckmas8808]

Oh ic, next gen won't start until developers use next gen engines. That's one very particular way of looking at things.

Yeah basically. Think about all the best games on the 360 today or about to come out! Now think about it. Most of them have something in common. They are not using last gen engines. Lost Planet, Gears, Mass Effect, Dead Rising, PGR 3, etc.