Which "16bit" console(computer) was most powerful?

[see colon]

if my toaster had 600mb carts with superFX butter on the bread it would totaly own a neogeo.

 

[Crazyace]

only if it was a parappa toaster!
http://psx.ign.com/articles/067/067222p1.html

 

[see colon]

my point is that it doesn't matter what a console could do when it was never done. people can say that if the snes had something it would be better than neogeo all day, but it doesn't make it so. play samurai showdown on the snes and the neogeo and then tell me the snes is more powerful. next thing you know people will be making rediculous claims about the ngage being more powerful than the psp, if only it had 2GB storage.

if it wasn't done it doesn't matter. the neogeo proved itself time and again to be superior to snes. look at recent neogeo games. svc chaos and last blade 2 could NOT have been done with that level of detail on the snes, even with the fx chip. sure, if the snes had huge carts and 20 times the ram it would be competative, but it wouldn't be a snes.

 

[Reznor007]

my point is that it doesn't matter what a console could do when it was never done. people can say that if the snes had something it would be better than neogeo all day, but it doesn't make it so. play samurai showdown on the snes and the neogeo and then tell me the snes is more powerful. next thing you know people will be making rediculous claims about the ngage being more powerful than the psp, if only it had 2GB storage.

if it wasn't done it doesn't matter. the neogeo proved itself time and again to be superior to snes. look at recent neogeo games. svc chaos and last blade 2 could NOT have been done with that level of detail on the snes, even with the fx chip. sure, if the snes had huge carts and 20 times the ram it would be competative, but it wouldn't be a snes.

I HAVE Sam Sho on SNES and NeoGeo. The SNES version has lower res sprites, and no scaling. The NG version is almost 15MB, while the SNES version is only 4MB. There is absolutely no way to fit 15MB of data into a 4MB chip. Detail had to be cut down. Let's see the NG version running on 1/4th the data and see how it looks Saying storage size is part of the power of the hardware isn't all that meaningful. You could say PS1 was more powerful than N64 because it could do FMV. People could have use huge carts like SNK, but other companies were trying to make games affordable to most people.

Now I'm not saying SNES is more powerful, just that NG wasn't that much more powerful.

And Guden, on Yoshi's Island the SuperFX draws the entire sprite layer, not just a thing here or there. Every slight rotation/scale/squish that happens is done on it. And aside from the fighting game scaling and Sengoku series, I can't think of many NG games that really use the scaling to a significant amount(on a related note, if you filter out all of the fighting games, the NG library is pretty small).

 

[see colon]

I HAVE Sam Sho on SNES and NeoGeo. The SNES version has lower res sprites, and no scaling.

so the neogeo version is better....

The NG version is almost 15MB, while the SNES version is only 4MB. There is absolutely no way to fit 15MB of data into a 4MB chip. Detail had to be cut down.

right, the snes version is watered down...

Let's see the NG version running on 1/4th the data and see how it looks

since a watered down version on the neogeo DOESN'T EXIST, this is a pointless argument. but still, i'll entertain you. assuming you took the neogeo card and dropped some animation frames, some resolution, and crappified the sound, you would still have a version of samurai showdown with scaling, just like the arcade. it would still have been better than the snes' no scaling, watered down version.

Saying storage size is part of the power of the hardware isn't all that meaningful. You could say PS1 was more powerful than N64 because it could do FMV. People could have use huge carts like SNK, but other companies were trying to make games affordable to most people.

can the snes even address more than a 32mbit cart? storage media is PART OF THE HARDWARE. the psx had to have a cd drive to read those cds, just like the n64 needed to have a cart slot to read carts. if the media isn't important, n64 games wouldn't have the "no loading" advantage, either.
furthermore, neogeo carts also house the system's ram, so taking away any platform specific media would also remove the neogeo's ability to have rediculous amounts of ram if a game required it.

 

[BigGamer X]

Very odd point of view you have there, Reznor. To me (and most ppl I would presume) even the average Neo Geo games were hands-down FAR more impressive than any Snes game. More colours, much sharper, and much more dramatic effects. The large scale sprite scales/shifts especially looked worlds better than the lame old SNES Mode7. No contest IMHO.

The Genesis games on the other had (just from a layman point of view) were for the most part not even in the same league as the SNES ones, but rather seemed like a mid-point between the Nes and Snes graphically.

It may not be the most common opinion of the systems, but it's coming from someone that owns both. Spec wise the NG looks far superior, but in actual use I don't think it would be impossible for SNES to do the same stuff.

Color wise, while NG can technically show 4096, it seems that many games don't even come close to it, especially the games from the first 2-3 years. As I said before, I think the biggest differences come down to ROM size(could be done on SNES though), sprite scaling(can be done via SuperFX) and resolution(no real workaround on SNES but it's only 64 pixels wider). SNES does have a 512x448 interlaced mode, but I think there was only 1-2 games that used it for actual gameplay screens, most used it for menus only since it's slower.

EDIT-As a related note, emulators list NG as 4096 colors displayable, but show SNES as 32768 displayable. As mentioned before, it was possible to show all colors on SNES.

I owned both too, but our opinions are different. I still contend Neo Geo had more colors, sprites, sound ect. than SNES, and thus, more "pizazz". SNES was a very good home console and I was very fond of it, but Neo Geo was on par with some of the arcade games I had played, so it impressed me more.

A few X more power isn't that big of a deal in the big scheme of things, but it is nice.......which means, yes Neo Geo wasn't leaps and bounds ahead of SNES, but you could notice the difference. I remember some freinds dad seeing a neo game and said something to the effect that neo geo had more "energy" than the other games he had seen, and he was no hardcore gamer. If a layperson can see the difference, it is undeniable.

 

[Crazyace]

And Guden, on Yoshi's Island the SuperFX draws the entire sprite layer, not just a thing here or there. Every slight rotation/scale/squish that happens is done on it.

I think the comparision is with the hardware capabilities - the SuperFX chip is basically dynamically generating sprite data , which is then displayed using the standard video hardware. The same limitations apply - and if there had been enough rom space most of the effects could probally have been done without it.

The neogeo is more capable for it's targetted software ( lot's of sprites without flickering ), but that doesn't diminish the brilliance of the SNES design.. ( It might have been interesting to see the tricks and techniques that may have appeared on the NeoGeo had it become a mainstream console with the same development efforts as the SNES or Genesis )

 

[Jabjabs]

The biggest Neo Geo cart I know of is Metal Slug 3 at 80MB, while I think MS5 is bigger I don't know the exact figure.

Personally I think that the Neo Geo was the king of the 16bit machines, overall it just did things for me.

 

[Reznor007]

The biggest Neo Geo cart I know of is Metal Slug 3 at 80MB, while I think MS5 is bigger I don't know the exact figure.

Personally I think that the Neo Geo was the king of the 16bit machines, overall it just did things for me.

Metal Slug 3 is actually almost 89MB. I think the other newer NG games that use the graphics encryption are all the same.

Crazyace, yeah, that's basically how SuperFX works. It draws the stuff internally, then it is DMA'd to the normal video hardware. Yoshi's Island seems to have it connected to the sprite hardware, but the other games like Doom or Star Fox have it connected to one of the background layers.

See colon, Neogeo carts do not contain any RAM. They are all ROM chips, and some newer games have a graphics decryption chip, most have some kind of PCM chip, some have program ROM decryption, and Riding Hero and Kizuna Encounter have link ports(link cart to cart for multiplayer). I have never seen a RAM chip in any NG cart I've taken apart. Unless you are counting ROM as RAM? AFAIK the motherboard contains all of the system RAM.

And yes, SNES can address more than 32mbit, there were a small handfull of 40-48mbit games. ZSNES only supports up to 48mbit because that was the largest commercial game. Technically it could do more, but it was never used.

 

[see colon]

See colon, Neogeo carts do not contain any RAM. They are all ROM chips, and some newer games have a graphics decryption chip, most have some kind of PCM chip, some have program ROM decryption, and Riding Hero and Kizuna Encounter have link ports(link cart to cart for multiplayer). I have never seen a RAM chip in any NG cart I've taken apart. Unless you are counting ROM as RAM? AFAIK the motherboard contains all of the system RAM.

all of about 150kbits of ram (including sound and video memory). do you really think that was enough?

here's a couple of sources that state that neogeo carts contained extra ram...

http://www.emulationzone.org/consoles/neo-geo/finally.htm
http://www.ecuadors.net/emulation/emulneo.htm

And yes, SNES can address more than 32mbit, there were a small handfull of 40-48mbit games. ZSNES only supports up to 48mbit because that was the largest commercial game. Technically it could do more, but it was never used.

but if noone is around to see the tree fall, did it really fall?

 

[BigGamer X]

That first link was off......it said the 68000 in the Neo Geo was only 8 mhz, when it is really 12 mhz.

 

[eastcore]

I've stepped into crazy land.

I can't believe some of you are comparing the SNES to the NeoGeo.

Is someone now going to claim that the Genesis was more powerful than both of them because it had a game or two that featured FMV - full motion video?

You guys are nuts!

Look, the NeoGeo was superior to the SNES and the Genesis and all the other 16 bit consoles.

It almost the exact same HW found in the NeoGeo arcade machines - I admit it isn't fare to compare it to the other consoles, seeing as how it was really an arcade machine and was SO much more expensive.

In fact, as games go, the other consoles had many more titles and much better games over all - just due to diversity.

But let's not start to imagine that the Genesis or SNES could go head to head with the NeoGeo.

And there is no sense is supposing what the SNES could do if it had 20x the RAM and 90MB games - because by the same token one could imagine what the NeoGeo could have done were you to give it the same consideration. The conversation is pointless. Face it.

But don't let me get in your way - perhaps someone other than you enjoys pointless discussions.

 

[see colon]

And there is no sense is supposing what the SNES could do if it had 20x the RAM and 90MB games - because by the same token one could imagine what the NeoGeo could have done were you to give it the same consideration. The conversation is pointless. Face it.

that's what i've been trying to say all along. it's not what could have been done, it' what has been done.

 

[Reznor007]

See colon, Neogeo carts do not contain any RAM. They are all ROM chips, and some newer games have a graphics decryption chip, most have some kind of PCM chip, some have program ROM decryption, and Riding Hero and Kizuna Encounter have link ports(link cart to cart for multiplayer). I have never seen a RAM chip in any NG cart I've taken apart. Unless you are counting ROM as RAM? AFAIK the motherboard contains all of the system RAM.

all of about 150kbits of ram (including sound and video memory). do you really think that was enough?

here's a couple of sources that state that neogeo carts contained extra ram...

http://www.emulationzone.org/consoles/neo-geo/finally.htm
http://www.ecuadors.net/emulation/emulneo.htm

And yes, SNES can address more than 32mbit, there were a small handfull of 40-48mbit games. ZSNES only supports up to 48mbit because that was the largest commercial game. Technically it could do more, but it was never used.

but if noone is around to see the tree fall, did it really fall?

Both of your sources are quite off.

Here's some pictures of 2 NeoGeo carts internals:

Windjammers/Flying Power Disc:
68000 program+audio samples board
Graphics data and Z80 music program board

Garou:Mark of the Wolves:
68000 program+audio samples board(large QFP marked SMA has internal ROM related to protection, other is PCM chip)
Graphics data and Z80 music program board(large QFP does graphics decryption)


And no, Genesis wasn't even close, despite having a similar hardware setup. 7.67MHz 68000+z80 compared to 12MHz 68000+z80. Genesis was basically a crippled System16 board from the late 80's.

Neogeo AES(home) was almost exactly the same as MVS(arcade). The only real difference was that the MVS had multislot support and a hardware calendar/battery for saving coin statistics and game settings. Even the game ROM's are the same. The BIOS in the system determines how the game runs(home/arcade mode, Jap,US,Euro region).

 

[function]

And no, Genesis wasn't even close, despite having a similar hardware setup. 7.67MHz 68000+z80 compared to 12MHz 68000+z80. Genesis was basically a crippled System16 board from the late 80's.

But given the crazy route this Saturn thread has taken, with add in processors in SNES carts and what-if comparisons for imaginary super size SNES carts, we can compare the Genesis and it's 32X and M-CD peripherals, in which case it beats both the SNES and Neo Geo hands down! CD audio, 700MB capacity, textured polygons, FMV, true 32-bit (x2), 3 power adaptors and irreperable damage to Sega's reputution!

Yes, on top of the failure of these peripherals in their own right, every "tower of doom" MD+MCD+32X combo game I'm aware of (and that's not many) is completely crap!

Throw in an imaginary 8MB RAM expansion cartridge to plug into the 32X (almost suprised Sega didn't release something like it) and it becomes even more formidable...

 

[Guden Oden]

if it only had a better color palette and the sound of the amiga.

Amiga sound was worse than SNES's by a mile and a half. All it managed was four mono channels (not stereo, as they all output EITHER to the left output OR the right) of up to 28-ish kHz PCM sample output, meaning max ~14kHz sound frequency. Add to that the infamous low-pass filter and it sounds like you got cotton in your ears.

SNES on the other hand has twice the sound channels, DSP effects, much higher frequency generation (20kHz+) and cleaner sound overall, and so on. No comparison.

FX chip however was a bastard child. Anyone who believes it could do neo-geo sprite scaling needs a good whack with a mallet in the head. Check out the asteroid level of starfox if you don't believe me. Though the FX chip in that cart runs slower than the one in yoshi's island it still wouldn't match neo-geo if doubled in speed. Plain FACT. I don't understand how anyone could even think of arguing otherwise, it's like saying the earth is flat for fvck's sake.

Time to call it a day Reznor, before the men in white coats come and stick you in a long-sleeved shirt and cart you off!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

of up to 28-ish kHz PCM sample output, meaning max ~14kHz sound frequency
56 kHz sample rate. I can't say Amiga sound hardware was amazing, but the sound quality, the use of samples and Mods, was certainly very impressive compared to the blinks and bleeps of the consoles when it was released, 5 years before SNES (nearer 7 years for UK release).

Wouldn't it be fairer to compare tech released in a similar time-frame? I mean, comparing 1985 to 1990 in computing terms is prettry nonsensical. Um, but then so's the whole discussion really...

 

[see colon]

Neogeo carts do not contain any RAM

i was certain enough that they did that i was about to tear apart some of my MVS carts, but i decided to do a little more research first. you are right, they don't contain any ram, but the neogeo has hardware support for "direct rom access" that basicly allows it to read dirctly from the carts as opposed to transfering from cart->ram before proccessing. this is where i believe the 330mb "limit" originates from. it looks like the neogeo can only page 330mb at a time, but the carts can be pretty much any size.

when comparing the snes to anything i think it is important to realize that there were several carts that included "special" hardware. before the fx and fx2, there was dsp and dsp2, and capcom had the c4. games like mario kart, pilot wings, rockman/megaman x3 and x4 all used this additional hardware. the snes hardware by itself was less powerfull than i think some people realize, but alot of clever programing and a bit of additional hardware in the carts helped paint a prettier picture in peoples minds.

 

[Reznor007]

Neogeo carts do not contain any RAM

i was certain enough that they did that i was about to tear apart some of my MVS carts, but i decided to do a little more research first. you are right, they don't contain any ram, but the neogeo has hardware support for "direct rom access" that basicly allows it to read dirctly from the carts as opposed to transfering from cart->ram before proccessing. this is where i believe the 330mb "limit" originates from. it looks like the neogeo can only page 330mb at a time, but the carts can be pretty much any size.

when comparing the snes to anything i think it is important to realize that there were several carts that included "special" hardware. before the fx and fx2, there was dsp and dsp2, and capcom had the c4. games like mario kart, pilot wings, rockman/megaman x3 and x4 all used this additional hardware. the snes hardware by itself was less powerfull than i think some people realize, but alot of clever programing and a bit of additional hardware in the carts helped paint a prettier picture in peoples minds.

There were more chips than that. There were 4 versions of the DSP chip(same chip with different microcode), Capcom's C4, FX1/2, SDD-1(for graphics compression), SA-1(extra video effects I think), SPC7110(graphics compression), ST010(coprocessor), and a few more too. Contrary to what seems to be a popular belief, the Donkey Kong Country series does not use any extra hardware, just a 4MB chip.

Something I found interesting is that devs would use extra chips in the carts, but not larger ROM chips. For example, Doom used FX2 and only a 2MB ROM chip. I emailed them a long time ago asking why it didn't have passwords/save support and they said they didn't have enough space for it. I guess back then mask ROM chips were pretty expensive.

I think Neogeo carts stopped at the size they did because the graphics data PCB only supports up to 8 chips for graphics, and 8MB was probably the highest amount that would fit per socket. Neogeo contained extra chips to, but none of them were for processing, just bootleg protection(which failed miserably).

 

[Megadrive1988]

when comparing the snes to anything i think it is important to realize that there were several carts that included "special" hardware. before the fx and fx2, there was dsp and dsp2, and capcom had the c4. games like mario kart, pilot wings, rockman/megaman x3 and x4 all used this additional hardware. the snes hardware by itself was less powerfull than i think some people realize, but alot of clever programing and a bit of additional hardware in the carts helped paint a prettier picture in peoples minds.

See Colon is very much right on, IMO. the SNES by itself, it really weak compared to NeoGeo, dispite the fact that SNES has some hardware effects the NeoGeo doesnt have. even in many of the games that made SNES stand out, it was thanks to additional processing chips in the carts to boost SNES's gutted capabilities. NeoGeo carts had no such extra processors in them as far as I'm aware. when you concider that the much much weaker Megadrive/Genesis could give the SNES a run for its money and realize that NeoGeo was like 4-5 times more powerful than Genesis (sprite processing)... it would be silly to think that SNES was anywhere near the power of NeoGeo. SNES conversions of NeoGeo games often did pretty well, but still with very very significant reductions.
even if we gave these SNES conversions an equal amount of ROM / cart size, they still couldnt be reproduced NeoGeo-perfect because of the huge difference in processing power. only if SNES had been everything it should have been, going by the 1989 spec, would it have come close to NeoGeo in processing speed. even then, there would have been still a 3x difference in sprite capability because even the original SNES spec had 128 sprites. the NeoGeo is more powerful than the SNES, Genesis and TurboGrafx combined. with that said, NeoGeo was not the most powerful home gaming platform of its era. the FM Towns was.