When do you think Dual DVI will arrive from ATi or Nvidia?

[Ante P]

 

[archie4oz]

Well I can't speak for PCs, but the all the boards (GF4MX, 9000 Pro, Ti4600, and the 9700 Pro) that come in the Mac Towers are dual DVI and can drive a pair of Cinema displays (1920x1200). I guess you could call the 15" and 17" laptops dual DVI in a sense as well since they drive the built in display and have a DVI port for external monitors (using the Mobility 9000, and GF4 Go 440 respectively)...

 

[plyy]

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/g9600pro.html

Tyan 9600Pro Dual DVI

single & dual DVI using the same pcb
single DVI already available in Japan

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20030621/image/g925.html

 

[elroy]

XFX has just released a dual DVI 5700 Ultra, if it's any help. http://www.xfxforce.com/product_view.php?sku=PVT36FND

 

[jvd]

Hey i don't want dual dvi . I have two crts both 21 inchs and I but a new 400-500$ video card every 6 months. I just don't like the image quality of lcds right now .

 

[Tim Murray]

is there any IQ sacrifice by using a DVI->VGA adapter?

 

[jvd]

is there any IQ sacrifice by using a DVI->VGA adapter?

yes my second monitor is darker and is more blury than the first one that is on the vga port.

They are both the same make and model.

 

[Zod]

Even two CRTs of the same make and model produced next to each other will be different. I have two F520s alongside each other, one on the VGA port, the other on the DVI port through a DVI-VGA adapter. One is 18 months older than the other. Both are pin sharp, but the default brightness and contrast levels are different and, more importantly, they have different colour balnce levels. Fortunately, the F520 allows individual gun adjusment, so I can get the colours matched.

 

[beyondhelp]

Oh, that's one of MY old whinges. I have no idea why we can't use digital connections for CRT's except for the Iiyama.

(Actually I do: it's because DVI doesn't have the bandwidth of analogue VGA yet. I whinged here on that topic about 6 months ago...)

Out of curiosity, where does DVI top out?

Is 1600x1200x32bpp @ 85Hz near or at the limit?

I had an HP FP1375x 22" CRT that used either VGA or DVI. (Had both) Using DVI, I was limited to 1600X1200X32 @ 75Hz, But I do not know if this was a limit of the Monitor itself, or the Graphics card's DVI output. (Ti4400)

 

[mczak]

is there any IQ sacrifice by using a DVI->VGA adapter?

yes my second monitor is darker and is more blury than the first one that is on the vga port.

They are both the same make and model.

But that's not because of the adapter. Usually the second analog output is crap because of the cheap filtering components used on the card. You can get Matrox cards with very good analog 2d output, even though they use DVI-VGA adapters...

 

[Sxotty]

2) Even if you HAVE to run in a non-native resolution (for either performnace reasons, or because the game doesn't support 1600x1200), you can at least run in 800x600 (which is at least reasonable, with AA), and not suffer the stretching artifacts or smaller screen if that resolution were run on a 1200x1024 monitor.

I saw a review of an LCD @ toms http://www6.tomshardware.com/display/20040116/s-ips_panels-09.html

In any case

Surprisingly, the worst interpolations are at 800x600, yet this setting is in proportion to the native resolution. Yet, as can easily be seen, the result is a disaster.

I just thought you might like to hear that, it kind of worried me as I thought that 800x600 would be good also (like you stated)....

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I just thought you might like to hear that, it kind of worried me as I thought that 800x600 would be good also (like you stated)....

Now that I have the monitor (Dell 2001FP), I have actually been pleasantly surprised at how good games look at any non native resolution I've tried.

I mean, playing UT at 1024x768 didn't look any less clear than playing at that resolution on a CRT.

I honestly have no reservations playing any games at non-native resolution on this monitor. I'll try and do some more "thoruough" testing with different types of games / demos if you're interested. Seriously. I have a completely different experience than Tom has with the same panel (though different product) with respect to scaling.

On the windows desktop it's a little different of course...text is not as clear compared to native resolution...which is to be expected. I don't think I tried 800x600 resolution desktop (without ClearType), so I'm not sure if it has the "sharpness" (just double up the pixels) or if it does some interpolation / scaling.

I also noticed that the Catalys drivers have a setting to force the monitor to go scale to full screen (which is set to yes)... AND the monitor itself has display settings (through the monitor's on screen controls) to do the same thing. There may be interactions between the two, so I might play with them to see what happens.

I mean, I don't know how much Tom blew up his images, but his statement: "If you are very demanding as to image quality, only the native mode, 1600x1200, will satisfy you" doesn't mesh with my experience with this panel.

I also don't know what Tom is talking about with respect to "jerkiness"

"The most important point, when compared to the L885, is that instead of a lag, which blurs images in games, here you get jerks, as if the image flow had been artificially reduced. To reassure you, this has nothing to do with the graphics card or the processor, we tried it in many configurations, from basic to very powerful, but nothing helped. "

I have never experienced any of this.

Now, I haven't actually tried UT2K3, my experience is on the original UT, Q3, and recently.

I find this comment strange:

Of course, moving over the [Command and Conquer Generals] map gets jerky and blurs, but this is pretty much always the case, even on CRTs. And it does nothing to detract from playability.

There is blurring...even on CRTs? What exactly is is he attributing to a "blur?"

Finally, It's not clear to me whether or not his tests were performed with analog or digitial inputs.

The only thing I can think of, is that he's using analog inputs (which I haven't used), and perhaps the Phillips monitor's Analog to Digital converter isn't handling 1600x1200 very well? It's just all very strange to me...

 

[Lestat]

I thought i'd register since i for once have something to contribute with.

I have a monitor built over the panel in the 2001FP and the one THG tested. It's the NEC 2080UX+. (Or rather, the 2080UX-BK+, which is the black version).

I will say i was pleasantly surprised, not to say overwhelmed by how little ghosting there were. Unreal 2 ghosts so little i hardly notice it when looking for it - a slight "softening" of the image is all there is. C&C Generals looks beautiful in 1600x1200!!! I also tried Jedi Knight 2 - Outcast, and there was some ghosting but very little. For those who know something about TFT's, the opening level is the absolute worst you can test a TFT on - gray is the most difficult color and the one that ghosts the most. The opening level in JK:O is almost completely gray with hardly any color and very little dynamic. Still, ghosting was IMO minimal and only really noticable when testing for it.

I should probably say that i don't know how sensitive i am to ghosting, as this is the first highend TFT i've owned, but i'm usually extremely sensitive to flaws in my displays (I previously had a FP1375x which was hard put to satisfy me, despite this being one of the better 22" CRT's money will buy) and even small defects are annoying to me.

There are of course a few flaws with this panel. There has been talk of a "dithering" effect, and yes there is some on this panel. However, it is mostly only noticable closer up than i would normally sit in front of the screen and ONLY on lighter colors. The effect is, i believe, caused by two things: The screendoors are a bit larger than normal (meaning that the border around the pixels is slightly larger than other panels) and secondly the coating on the screen, or the NEC anyway, can give cause to a slight "shimmering" look. It's just one of those things you have to get used to i guess.

However, even these things taken in consideration, i couldn't go back to my 1375x. The picture is simply amazingly vivid and sharp. And of course, a 20" TFT takes up significantly less than a 22" CRT!
Now every time i see a monitor that i previously thought was very sharp i can't help thinking how blurred and dull it looks compared to the much brighter TFT.

L.

 

[Lestat]

I find this comment strange:

Of course, moving over the [Command and Conquer Generals] map gets jerky and blurs, but this is pretty much always the case, even on CRTs. And it does nothing to detract from playability.

There is blurring...even on CRTs? What exactly is is he attributing to a "blur?"

Finally, It's not clear to me whether or not his tests were performed with analog or digitial inputs.

The only thing I can think of, is that he's using analog inputs (which I haven't used), and perhaps the Phillips monitor's Analog to Digital converter isn't handling 1600x1200 very well? It's just all very strange to me...

Actually, THG is right (for once). Even CRT's ghost - though it is probably little enough that few notice. The phosphor in a CRT has a certain decay - sometimes you will be able to get specs on this from the manufacturer, stating either short, medium or long persistence phosphor. I think medium is the most widely used.
If the phosphor did NOT have decay, it would look like a strobe to your eyes, even at 85hz and you would probably think motion stuttered.

IIRC, pixelresponse on a CRT is around 5-8ms, i.e. not terribly far from where we are with TFT's. Of course, unlike TFT's, this is an absolute value, the phosphor takes this long to decay regardless of whether it is emitting a black color or blue. So the average pixelresponse compared to TFT's is probably more like 400% faster. (16ms panels probably have an average pixelresponse around 25-30ms).

L.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

There are of course a few flaws with this panel. There has been talk of a "dithering" effect, and yes there is some on this panel. However, it is mostly only noticable closer up than i would normally sit in front of the screen and ONLY on lighter colors.

Yes, I have the same experience on the Dell 2001FP. I attributed it myself to the screen coating, but of course I don't really know.

I notice the same effect on this lap-top LCD that I'm typing this on, but it is a little more pronounced on the Dell. As with you, I only notice with lighter colors.

 

[zsouthboy]

Might be OT, but. . . anyone know if projectors are any good for gaming?

I can say, yes, most assuredly


Pick up a nice $1500-$2500 projector... and get ready to replace the expensive bulb over and over..

 

[KimB]

Might be OT, but. . . anyone know if projectors are any good for gaming?

The Physics Club had a lot of fun commandeering one of the classrooms at the University after-hours for a few games

The classroom was equipped with a very nice projector....man that was a big screen....and crystal clear up to (at least!) 1024x768 with a computer hooked up.

But now I'm somewhat wondering why we didn't just try to get into one of the lecture halls and get one of the really big screens....*sigh*....

 

[Heathen]

and get one of the really big screens

UT 2K3 played on a 20 ft tall screen is extremely impressive I'd have to admit. "Yes mate, testing's gonna take a wee bit longer down here..."