Wheee!! [H] has finally managed to piss off FutureMark.

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by Ostsol, Oct 6, 2004.

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  1. Unit01

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    So the hypocrite got out of this one. Bummer that the show is already over. I wonder if there are any left that doesn't disagree Kyle for him to ban on his forums.
    Freedom of speech, yeah sure he argues it when he is in trouble, but he doesn't respect it towads others. Moron

    And you're still going to keep slandering 3dmark because you still don't have a friggin idea what it does?
     
  2. Reverend

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    I'd like to see the game called 3DMark05. Apparently Futuremark thinks it's a game of the future, available today!

    :twisted: :lol:

    No hard feelings FM guys :)
     
  3. PatrickL

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    Yes WoW is way less demanding on ressources.

    I have and Athlon 64 3000, 1 gig of ram and an X800 pro Vivo modded to X800 XT -PE. EQ2 is un playable at max settings when you move with your guild :)
     
  4. Entropy

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    Careful, lest you turn into Ed Stroligo.
     
  5. digitalwanderer

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    What does "subs" mean? :|
     
  6. RickCain

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    I think it means "subscribers"
     
  7. ivzk

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    So what you're telling me Kyle is that you have no ill feelings for Futuremark back from the days of Nvidia's blatant cheating. If I remember correctly, you were the last one on the whole web to admit Nvidia's wrongdoing. Time after time you stated that the cheats would be removed in the next set of drivers. Time after time you were wrong. This was all according to your sources at Nvidia. Then you finally posted that anti-Nvidia editorial ripping into them about their bullshit. And to top it all off, after that Futuremark bent over for Nvidia, further making you look like a fool.

    Nvidia is much more to blame for your change of heart than Futuremark ever will be. Be thankfull you still have an audience after that switcheroo you pulled.
     
  8. PatrickL

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    CoH is an unexpected success but still a small game (and not my taste )

    http://pw1.netcom.com/~sirbruce2/Subscriptions1.gif[/img]
     
  9. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Or "subsciptions", I should have got that. :oops: I blame it on my pre-coffee state at the time, thanks Rick.
     
  10. webmedic

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    Hellbinder is correct here. I am not a lawyer but when i was in the military I served with a guy who joined to get more money to finish his degree( I believe) and I had said some things about him that I didn't know at the time were not true but they were not and he was nice about it but warned me if I didn't knock it off he would sue me for slander.

    Go look it up you may be surprised and right about know it would do kyle allot of good to play nice and shut his mouth. The problem for him is his claims are baseless and indeed are almost always slanderous.
     
  11. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    My understanding of it is if you can back up what you say you're safe, but IANAL....just been sued a few times. :oops:
     
  12. FrgMstr

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    Monthly subscriptions.
     
  13. FrgMstr

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    Here are some links that will show you what I am telling you.

    http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=816850

    I would highly suggest you not use us as a source for information if you think we produce bad or biased content.

    I will stand by every video card review we have done. If you find any switcheroos on our video card evaluations, you let me know.
     
  14. FrgMstr

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    I am prepared to stand behind everything we publish in a court of law and I am currently doing that. And I will be victorious. I highly doubt that baseless and slanderous claims have given us the millions we have in our reader base. But if you choose to believe that, you have the right to do so.

    It could be easily said that you are making baseless and "slanderous" claims right now, as you have not given one iota of proof to back up your statements. You will see that we always explain our logic and reasoning for reaching our conclusions, whether you agree with them or not. Thanks.

    Edited for grammar.
     
  15. ivzk

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    DELETED :oops:
     
  16. WaltC

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    Honestly, I think that sort of "victory" isn't going to happen until [H] declares it has forever ceased and desisted in banning posters and/or deleting their posts from the [H] forums simply because somebody at [H] disagrees with the concept of other people also having the same "freedom of speech" [H] believes it has. Hopefully, you aren't seriously suggesting any other kind of "victory" would be appropriate? Surely not.

    Freedom of Speech doesn't mean "Frgmstr's freedom of speech," it means "Freedom of speech for everybody, including Frgmstr." As that is actually what it means, I should think that would be obvious....;)

    Well, if your sentiment is to celebrate because, "Gee, I got to mindlessly insult FutureMark and its software on the front page of my web site, and then got them to apologize to me for having insulted them! " then I suppose that might be just cause for celebration (although in a twisted sort of way, of course.) Heh...;) But as for me I'll put off my celebration until such time as [H] publicly demonstrates that it understands that the concept of freedom of speech also applies to everyone else in the world apart from [H], and applies equally.

    Somehow, I think I won't be celebrating that for awhile, though, but of course would be pleased to have you prove me wrong...:D
     
  17. Bolloxoid

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    Any chance that could be done professionally, cutting back on your ape-like behavior a bit? Thus far your use of language has been everything but fitting for any serious journalist and more resembling a troubled teenage kid. This is not a question of free speech, it is a question of maturity.

    At present, your hillbilly conduct only underscores your lack of technical proficiency.
     
  18. WaltC

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    Sorry, but the benchmark also informs people as to the fact that their hardware is equal to the task as well, so you have no point (again) to actually make. Aside from that, the use of 3dMk, like the use of any benchmark, is entirely elective in the first place. Benchmarks are generally available for people who elect to use them, and as lots of benchmarks for all sorts of things exist, then it follows that lots of people elect to use them. To that end, you are confused with respect to the word "we" as obviously you represent no one aside from yourself here.

    So...yawn...again we have the complaint that 3dMK is a benchmark and not a game. Yet, this is true of all benchmarks, as it is equally true that games are not benchmarks--hence, your predelection to use games as benchmarks is contradictory and illogical, since if a benchmark is not a game, then obviously a game cannot be a benchmark. That is why, for instance, running Far Cry tells you nothing specifically about how your hardware will run Doom 3, or HD Tach, or 3dMK, etc., for that matter.

    My consistent position has always been that there is no reason to run 3dMk in a review at the exclusion of running various games, just as there is no reason to run various games at the exclusion of 3dMk in a review. Why? Because you can run them *all* in a review, obviously, thus the imagined conflict between a game and a benchmark does not exist, since they are not mutually exclusive in the first place. There is no need to choose selectively among them, in other words, unless your intent is to selectively color your conclusions to represent a predetermined position (this practice is commonly known as "bias.")

    Well, OK, if you are saying that [H] is not a technical site and its hardware reviews are not meant to reflect any technical realities as to the hardware they review, I suppose I might be able to agree...;)

    Anecdotally, I've been buying 2d and 3d graphics cards for a good bit in excess of a decade, and I've studiously avoided buying a GFMX like the plague. I have owned several other nVidia-based graphics cards, however, but never a GFMX, so as you can see what is "popular" and what is not is entirely a matter of personal opinion and perspective. For instance, I consider it a rational postulate that possibly as many as 90% of GFMX purchasers rate 3d-gaming very low on their personal totems (because, as 3d-accelerators, they certainly don't make the grade, imo.) But this is true of all "value" 3d products, not just nVidia's, of course.

    In contrast to your opinion about manipulating the way a benchmark is to be used, I disagree. I prefer running it and simply reprinting the numbers it gives you, alongside running various shipping games and reprinting the numbers they give you, in tandem with IQ examinations, and then simply letting your readers make up their own minds as to what they wish to make of those numbers and IQ results. Also, I see nothing wrong with a reviewer stating his personal preferences in a conclusion that is appropriately marked as a subjective conclusion within the review, and is justified in some reasonable way. Reviews which censor certain benchmarks and/or games, and attempt to mask opinion as if it was fact, are not actually reviews, imo, but mere propaganda pieces.


    But you see--now you are attempting to manipulate what "gamers" see and what they don't see, and imo, that's dishonest. A "gamer's review" may consist of whatever information the reviewer wishes to include, with no exceptions, as I am aware of no laws or regulations or rules governing what may or may not be presented in a hardware review. Understand that we are talking about *hardware* reviews here and not game reviews--which are entirely different, of course.

    I'm telling you that as a reviewer is is not your place to decide what is "valuable" and what is not when it comes to serving your readership, as the best reviews will if anything present an overflow of information and let the reader make decisions as to what is valuable to him and what is not. IE, better too much info, by far, than not enough.

    Yes, 3dMK is a benchmark that millions of people run (again, you correctly apprise that it is not a game....;)) Your suggestion would be fine if you were writing your review to meet your own specific and narrow personal needs, and writing it just to read yourself. But public reviews serve wide numbers of people who often have considerably different tastes, preferences, and desires, so that is why a hardware review should be broad as opposed to narrow, imo.

    Your question makes no sense. The subject is [H]'s hardware reviews--not [H]'s game reviews. Certainly, I'm sure you know why the two categories of review are not interchangeable. What good, for instance, is a 6800U hardware review which is concerned with nothing but talking about Doom 3?....;) Not much good as a *hardware* review, right? Same token, what good is a Doom 3 game review which does nothing but talk about a 6800U? Basically, a game review concerns itself with the game reviewed and is hardware agnostic, and a hardware review concerns itself with a wide variety of 3d software, including both games and benchmarks, and is game-agnostic. It's not a difficult distinction for me...;)

    Again, 3dMk is a hardware benchmark concerned with benching the hardware used by 3d gamers, with an emphasis on direct support of the latest 3d API functionality. It's purpose is not to tell us about "games", but about the hardware we use to play those games, with an accent on the support of the latest API technology *currently* shipping in 3d products (which may not show up supported in shipping games for months after it is officially supported in the APIs and by IHVs in their 3d hardware and drivers.)

    Physics, AI, and all of the rest of it are subjects for *game reviews*--not hardware reviews. Very easy distinction here...


    Again, understand the difference between a "3d-gamer's *hardware* benchmark" and a "3d game" and you understand the difference. Trust me, it's not hard...;)

    Let's see--3dMK exposes 3d-gaming API functionality which is supported by the 3d cards gamers are buying today, and the drivers for those cards, but is often *not supported* in shipping 3d games for months (but *will be supported* without a doubt since 3dMK mostly concerns itself with current API functionality as opposed to any future "theoretical" API functionality.) So there you have the distinction between 3dMK as a benchmark and currently shipping 3d games.

    The phrase, "gamer's benchmark," means simply a "benchmark for gamers" because it is concerned with *3d-gaming API functionality* native specifically to the D3d API (the API under which 90% of all shipping 3d games ship currently.) What it does not mean is "a game benchmark." I find it remarkable that the distinction is so troublesome for you.

    Well, then perhaps the solution for [H] is to drop out of doing 3d-card hardware reviews completely, then, and restrict itself to game reviews? Seems like that would fit just fine. Basically, there's just no argument [H] can bring to bear that can justify excluding 3dMk in a hardware review, because [H] isn't restricted to 3dMk but can also run all of the "real games" it wants to run at the same time. It's not an either-or proposition, and never has been.
     
  19. LabRat

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    WaltC you seem an intelligent, if loquacious ( ;) ) fellow, so I think you are purposfully ignoring the difference between public and private areas. Banning from a private website/forum is not actually a supression of speech. The internet is a semi-public entity mostly made up of privately owned sites, much as a neighborhood is a public area consisting mostly of private yards. Using that analogy, Mr. Bennet did not supress speech by banning anyone, he simply kicked them out of his yard. They are free to go to another yard (www.beyond3d.com perhaps) and say what they will (within reason, slander and libel have been defined elsewhere in this thread). They are also free to purchase their own yard.

    LR
     
  20. andypski

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    Ahh yes the great [H]ardOCP 11/13/03 Editorial - I'd almost forgotten about it, it's been so long...

    The Q&A in that one has always been good when I need a good chuckle. :)

    "The industry felt the need to run "unoptimized code" through fear of the "new" optimizing compilers" :D

    Sheer comedy genius.
     
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