What's BB doing now?

Rookie

Newcomer
Noticed on Viahardware that they said they get a letter from BB:

"As you can imagine, there are many out there who share your view of wanting a new player in the 3D graphics market and we plan to make our presence felt in a big way. But until we have working silicon in house, we are keeping pretty quiet. If you have questions about information we have on the website or on our opinion of 3D gaming and the market, I'd be glad to answer any of those. "

When I loged on BB's website,I noticed BB's recruiting Asic engineers:

"We offer you the challenge for creativity and possibility to influence all our projects. You will work as an integral part of our dynamic research and development team in producing innovative 3D graphics solutions. Benefit package can be tailored to meet your qualifications and needs."

ASIC EE?That means they still need more resource to design the silicon? what progress r they in now?

Hope some insider call tell us,ofcoz,I dont count Dave,he still keep his mouth tighten..
:cry:
 
There's only one guy around these parts that can tell you anything about the BitBoys, and he no longer works for them...I'm talking about Dave.

I'm not sitting here trying to make interpretations for everybody else...But let's look @ the obvious...

-BitBoys have never kicked out a retail product...IE something that you can physically purchase from your favorite store, etc.

-Last January (it was like Jan 6, 2001), an interview was conducted with Shane Long, the now head of BB's. He said, point blank, that they would have something to say "soon", and even gave a timeframe for production on this project that they make reference to on their website.

Want to take a guess as to when that followup interview took place? You know, the one that might read like, "The last time we interviewed Shane Long, he said that production would begin in the 2nd or 3rd Quarter...Well, here we are, and we can finally...blah blah blah"...

Answer...never happened.

-Sometime in the middle of 2001, it was pretty obvious that Infineon was having some tough financial times, as they seemed to be hit by the recession pretty hard...It turns out that the financial stability, or lack thereof, might have had some influence in a supposed decision to freeze certain programs...and it appears/appeared that the BiyBoys project was one of them.

This was never really formally announced (at least, I don't think it was)...but a couple of the die-hard BB's followers, like Nappe1, started talking about it in-and-around the time when Infineon was, indeed, making public statements about what they were going to do about the huge losses they were absorbing.

-The supposed word was/is that this BB's part, though supposedly complete, would never be manufactured...Hmmm...A bit perplexing, eh?

Let's just make an assumption about this chip...let's suppose that the chip is considered "complete," and it was just a matter of getting the chip(s) cranked out...This is, of course, only half the battle...and, perhaps, you can make the argument that it's only a Quarter of the battle!

Even if they had a manufactured piece of silicon, what about drivers? Let's focus on nVidia for just a second here...

As of right now, nVidia has some $100+ Million invested in a wide range of software/utilities/hardware/systems to better help them design their products well before you ever get the things in their hands...Lets start right there...

OK, so here you have nVidia...They have, arguably, the finest staff of 3D/ASIC/Software engineers...period. In addition, they also have this wealth of experience in actually MAKING actual products...Not pipe-dream products, but bona-fide products that can actually be purchased.

OK...still with me? On top of ALL of that (if that weren't enough of a difference maker), nVidia has invested HUGE sums of money on tools to better assist them in designing their products literally years before the things ever become reality. Not only do they have tools that assist them in designing the chips, but also in virtually every conceivable area along the development path...

OK...Again, this then leads you back to the drivers issue...nVidia then has, as of now, drivers that basically encompass 4-5 years of evolving know-how/technology/experience/etc. This is not something that you can just pickup...you have to "be there" to be able to garner this kind of experience.

Going back to the issue of $$/tools/CAD/etc...nVidia has, once again, invested a huge amount of capitol in the so-called "farm" of systems that run 24/7 in testing their drivers for errors, etc.

Now, lets think about this one...Try to imagine all of these things for just a second...and then consider where the BitBoys are coming from.

=>No product experience...

=>No driver maturity to rely on...

=>No Super Wiz-Bang, well-known CAD tools to help them out (be it development, diagnosis, etc)...

=>No reduction-to-practice experience...

=>No real manufacturing experience...

=>Heck, no real Marketing experience either...Even if they had something that kicked ass, and could be manufactured...they would still have to marker the product!

OK...This message is getting long-winded...But honest to God...

If you just look @ what makes nVidia tick, and then think about the hurdles that a BitBoys would have to overcome, just to get the thing out the door...In terms of numbers, you almost come to the conclusion that the probability of it ever happening are nearly ZERO...I have been delusional about the BitBoys, as have many others, over the years...and I have finally come to this conclusion.

I'm sure Dave can throw his $.02 in here, if he wants...but the fact that he no longer works there does, indeed, tell you a little bit about what might be going on (if you read between the lines).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Typedef Enum on 2002-03-07 08:45 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Typedef Enum on 2002-03-07 08:46 ]</font>
 
Type Def Enum: Thanks for the compliments. ;)

and Bitboys situation... Well, when the Avalanche project was still going like planned they were quiet, but there was leaks here and there. But now? Nothing. They are still alive, but I have never seen so quiet company like Bitboys is now.

There is some rumours floating around, but it is hard to say which are correct and which aren't. So only time will show what happens.
 
-BitBoys have never kicked out a retail product...IE something that you can physically purchase from your favorite store, etc.

True. But is that entirely Bitboys fault? Nope. This past year has been the first time Bitboys has really had a full design team, giving them the chance to really execute.

-Last January (it was like Jan 6, 2001), an interview was conducted with Shane Long, the now head of BB's. He said, point blank, that they would have something to say "soon", and even gave a timeframe for production on this project that they make reference to on their website.

Things happen. I can't tell you the whole story, but it is really very interesting and in the end better that it didn't come in some ways. Ok, that might not make any sense even to people who know what is going on at Bitboys or those who work there, but.. well it does if you know what I'm thinking about.

-Want to take a guess as to when that followup interview took place? You know, the one that might read like, "The last time we interviewed Shane Long, he said that production would begin in the 2nd or 3rd Quarter...Well, here we are, and we can finally...blah blah blah"...

That won't happen, even though we know our dates.


-Sometime in the middle of 2001, it was pretty obvious that Infineon was having some tough financial times, as they seemed to be hit by the recession pretty hard...It turns out that the financial stability, or lack thereof, might have had some influence in a supposed decision to freeze certain programs...and it appears/appeared that the BiyBoys project was one of them.

I'm not sure what I can say about this, so I'm not going to comment.

-The supposed word was/is that this BB's part, though supposedly complete, would never be manufactured...Hmmm...A bit perplexing, eh?

Well I really can't comment here either. I'm not sure what the official answer is. If someone knows, by all means tell me and then perhaps I can expand.

-Even if they had a manufactured piece of silicon, what about drivers?

Drivers are well known about and have been in development for a very considerable amount of time.

=>No product experience...

Not really true.

=>No driver maturity to rely on...

Not really true either.

=>No Super Wiz-Bang, well-known CAD tools to help them out (be it development, diagnosis, etc)...

Oh really?? It is amazing how people just know what is going on in a company when they actually have no way of knowing.

=>No reduction-to-practice experience...

eh?

=>No real manufacturing experience...

Semi-true.

=>Heck, no real Marketing experience either...Even if they had something that kicked ass, and could be manufactured...they would still have to marker the product!

Completely false.

-If you just look @ what makes nVidia tick, and then think about the hurdles that a BitBoys would have to overcome, just to get the thing out the door...In terms of numbers, you almost come to the conclusion that the probability of it ever happening are nearly ZERO...I have been delusional about the BitBoys, as have many others, over the years...and I have finally come to this conclusion.

People would have said the same things about NVIDIA when they first started when compared to ATI and S3. Or even NVIDIA vs. 3dfx.

-I'm sure Dave can throw his $.02 in here, if he wants...but the fact that he no longer works there does, indeed, tell you a little bit about what might be going on (if you read between the lines).

Don't read between the lines because you don't know what you are looking for.
 
Not really true. Even if you just change fabs, it is an entire processes that takes time. You have to use the new fabs libraries, which sets things back too.


Umm....I did not write the above....Dave, I assume you hit "edit" instead replying to my post?

What I originally said was it is infact 100% bit-boys "fault" that they do not have any hardware on the market. Not necessarily the engineer's fault, but Bit Boys is made up of more than engineers.

During the course of design, Bit Boys had to make risk / reward type decisions. Including those which may have limited the ability to implement their design using more than a single fab partner. They apparently "risked" focusing their design to exclusively bleeding edge Infneon edram. It's BitBoys "fault" for making that decision.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Joe DeFuria on 2002-03-08 20:27 ]</font>
 
My only disagreement with any of the above statemets is the constant insistance by some that Nvidia rules the stinking world as we know it.

To start with their financial state is ALWAYS being extremely over estemated. Bottom line the Retail add-on card graphics market is a 50 million a year industry. Period. FACT 60% of nvidia sales to theis day are TNT2 classed ships. You do the math. Guranteed that these figures being thrown around for Nvidia are just flat out exagerated or pulled out of thin air.

AS far as having the best hardware Engineers.... That is flat out LAUGHABLE IMO. They could not even get S3TC correct for 4 generations. Sure they have some attractive technology but so does ATi and Imagine. Just because YOU like them, or they have dupped the public via Hype and BIASED web media does not make them better.

Personally i think that I.T. has the best hardware Engineers and I dont even own one of their cards.
 
As of right now, nVidia has some $100+ Million invested in a wide range of software/utilities/hardware/systems to better help them design their products well before you ever get the things in their hands...

Only want to add the following:
"The PCIBuilderâ„¢ cuts the time-to-market of PCI-bus based devices by allowing the hardware to be simulated on real PC environment and device drivers to be co-developed together with the hardware.
(...)
This has allowed hardware algorithms to be easily tuned and tested in real application environment before moving the design into hardware description language and logic simulators. (...)
Since the PCI-device on the client system looks to the operating system like it would be your final PCI-based product it is possible to write full device drivers very early in the development phase."

The above is a product description of the PCI-Builder. I copy´n pasted it from the BB site from ~1998. So, sure, this is PR, but at last they evidently have done something in this direction and probably the time did not stand still since then in Noormakku or Dallas.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bentarr on 2002-03-08 19:25 ]</font>
 
I'm not even going to copy/paste what I said...Just from memory, I know that I said something like "arguably the..." as it relates to the engineering staff @ nVidia.

It doesn't seem like you quite understand that at statement at all, based on your comments.

As for the other crapola about their financial being over-estimated...Yeah, OK. I'm real sure that nVidia just pulls these figures out of thin air.

In fact, there's a really good X-Files on TV tonight...
 
There is alot of capital out there to invest in any number of projects. I can't see BB out of it until the people at BB believe it. As long as BBs believe in what they are doing then only time will really tell. If BB has working silicon ( I really don't know) even if they don't they can still get numerous other investers if their designs are somewhat promissing. IBM, S3, Microsoft and literally hundreds of others could help push BB through this hurdle.

Having only two major players ATI/Nvidia in the World for such a large growing market is just ripe for a third major player. I am not forgetting about Matrox or PowerVR either, they just seem to be minor players at this time.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: noko on 2002-03-09 16:27 ]</font>
 
Bitboys bet big on edram and so far it seems they've been hurt by the risk. I'd bet that most of the problems have nothing to do with the quality of Bitboy's engineers and instead are due to the manufacturer's inablity to meet deadlines. Manufacturer's have been failing on edram promises for years.

Many companies, both hardware and software, cancel projects frequently because they bite off more than they can chew (even if it's not their fault). Hopefully for Bitboys sake it doesn't come to that.

As for what company has the best engineers that is an impossible question to answer. In my opinion nVidia's main advantage is in its processes. By this I mean the management structure and culture that allow them to execute as well as any other company. That is nVidia's real advantage.
 
On 2002-03-09 21:39, Nexus wrote:
It doesn't fit the topic 100%, but its at least related and I don't want to make a new topic.

Anyone noticed the picture at the bottom of this site: http://www.reactorcritical.com/review-jeronimo2000/review-jeronimo2000.shtml ?

Comments?

hmmh... Interesting...
at first, AFAIK, I didn't know that Glaze3D was MM-capable. Also AFAIK that Glaze3D really reached the working silicon, but because all kind of problems it was put back to the drawing board.

Then they got this Avalanche... Based on those Images I saw at Assembly, I think that Avalanche really was/is able to use 2 monitors. (well, maybe we get some information about this later on...)

Anyways, there is still few very interesing things hidden in Bitboys design. Avalanche would have been much more than just a gaming card if I am not mistaken.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nappe1 on 2002-03-10 00:23 ]</font>
 
Back
Top