Whats achievable and whats not....

[Nesh]

Before replying to this thread please read:

1)This thread isnt specifically for PS3 or how better it is than XBOX360 or the opposite.

2)Any f*nboyish behaviour is not welcome.

3)This discussion has nothing to do wether PS3's tech demo's were real or not

4)Posts about Sony lying again etc and hyping blah blah is also irrelevant and not welcome

5)The point of the discussion is whether the quality that developers are supposed to target is achievable with the next generation of consoles (regardless if its 360 or PS3).

We all saw the tech demos at E3.We also saw new graphics engines like WarDevil's.
But people mostly discussed wether they are real or not.

The question is can that quality be achieved in real games?

I ll bring some of the titles/demos shown

Killzone2: Incredible draw distance, attention to detail, physics and advanced real life like AI and animation

Final Fantasy7 tech demo: Again incredible draw distance, attention to detail---confirmed real time but is the same quality achievable in gameplay enviroment?

Motorstorm: Probably the most impressive demonstration of what to expect from physics.Dirt and mad splatttering realistically almost as if they have volume, maddy road changing surface shapes according to the speed and weight of the vehicles, every part of the enviromet has its own interactive generated physics (car hitting a tree-->branch falls on the car and brakes it), car damage so realistic its like watching a real car smashing into pieces, with each piece of if reacting in its own way

Heavenly Sword: separate character AI, constant framerate, hundreds of characters on screen without frame drop, huge draw distance, superb animation and physics

Tekken demo: Sweat vaborising/emmiting from screen, drops spraying away from skin reacting while character performs sudden moves, detailed skin to such a degree you can even see tiny pores, blackheads, and shaved hair

Warhawk: hundreds of planes on screen, huge detailed terrain, dynamic lighting, and many detailed characters on screen at once, superbly detailed surfaces(in cave) all at constant 60fps

Then Kojima showcases MGS4 in real time at the same quality and even hints that that level of quality is achievable.

I d like to mention more examples but you can get the point.

So do you believe that this quality can be achieved in the new generation of hardware like 360 and PS3?

 

[AlphaWolf]

So do you believe that this quality can be achieved in the new generation of hardware like 360 and PS3?

No.

 

[Black Dragon37]

I thought Sony already proved that question. You definitely can't question them if they showed a playable realtime demo at the PlayStation Meeting in July.

 

[pakpassion]

Before replying to this thread please read:

1)This thread isnt specifically for PS3 or how better it is than XBOX360 or the opposite.

2)Any f*nboyish behaviour is not welcome.

3)This discussion has nothing to do wether PS3's tech demo's were real or not

4)Posts about Sony lying again etc and hyping blah blah is also irrelevant and not welcome

5)The point of the discussion is whether the quality that developers are supposed to target is achievable with the next generation of consoles (regardless if its 360 or PS3).

We all saw the tech demos at E3.We also saw new graphics engines like WarDevil's.
But people mostly discussed wether they are real or not.

The question is can that quality be achieved in real games?

I ll bring some of the titles/demos shown

Killzone2: Incredible draw distance, attention to detail, physics and advanced real life like AI and animation

Final Fantasy7 tech demo: Again incredible draw distance, attention to detail---confirmed real time but is the same quality achievable in gameplay enviroment?

Motorstorm: Probably the most impressive demonstration of what to expect from physics.Dirt and mad splatttering realistically almost as if they have volume, maddy road changing surface shapes according to the speed and weight of the vehicles, every part of the enviromet has its own interactive generated physics (car hitting a tree-->branch falls on the car and brakes it), car damage so realistic its like watching a real car smashing into pieces, with each piece of if reacting in its own way

Heavenly Sword: separate character AI, constant framerate, hundreds of characters on screen without frame drop, huge draw distance, superb animation and physics

Tekken demo: Sweat vaborising/emmiting from screen, drops spraying away from skin reacting while character performs sudden moves, detailed skin to such a degree you can even see tiny pores, blackheads, and shaved hair

Warhawk: hundreds of planes on screen, huge detailed terrain, dynamic lighting, and many detailed characters on screen at once, superbly detailed surfaces(in cave) all at constant 60fps

Then Kojima showcases MGS4 in real time at the same quality and even hints that that level of quality is achievable.

I d like to mention more examples but you can get the point.

So do you believe that this quality can be achieved in the new generation of hardware like 360 and PS3?

You will see Killzone 2 Reel graphics in pS4 and XBox 3, not in this next generation or later in this next generation (PS3)

Same case for Final Fantasy VII (PS3)

Same case for Motorstorm (PS3)

Same case for heavenly sword (PS3/Xbox360)

Same case for Tekken (PS3)

Warhawk is close to achievable but not at that level (PS3)

MGS4 is not as close to achievable as Warhawk but around 15-25% less visual quality (PS3)

A good example is Gundam. It looked good on a 7800 GTX card (lower clock, higher memory bandwidth) but it had lower lighting effects, the animation was redudant and there was no wind, no physics as the SPEs were apparently off. it was a small map with 4 Mechs moving forward with graphics we have seen in far cry on PC. but thats with a 7800 GTX not RSX but close to the final image quality (not GPU speed) of the games

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Same case for Final Fantasy VII (PS3)

Same case for heavenly sword (PS3/Xbox360)

I certainly beg to differ on these two counts. The FFVII demo was running on a Cell, not a PS3 (no RSX) and was only written in two months. I don't believe they tapped 100% of the processor's capabilities having only ever looked at it and it's crazy architecture for only two months!

As for Heavenly Sword, what we saw was real and happening and being developed by two visitors to this forum (thoough only one at E3). Again what we saw was running with limited use of the Cell processor. As to whether they get 1080p 60fps I don't know, but it'll be here on PS3 and I'll probably be playing it.

Indeed you seem to have fobbed off several titles that already are that good looking in realtime right now on inferior development hardware to the final kit!

As for the future these machines will be stretched and do fantastic things I'm sure. It's amazing how talented developers can find unbelievable ways to do things. Having seen the Tourist Trophy trailer which definitely looks very lifelike at times, I'm expecting GT5 to be pretty-darned photographic.

It's also difficulty to qualify whether things reach 'Killzone' quality or not. Do you rate as succeeding by matching polycounts or look? Eg. If the KZ game 'looks' like the E3 showing does it pass your criteria if it sacrifices some of the details like the bumpy wheels?

 

[SirTendeth]

To the end user I think it will look a lot like the tech demos.

Developers will find ways to mimic those looks in a way that will be good enough for most consumers.

It's reminiscent of how we compare current Gen games to older CG.
They make look comparable on the surface but, it's not a case of the same techniques being applied in real-time. But it is a case of using smarter ways of achieving the same basic look.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

Well, I won't use any of the examples you have Nesh, but I will use one from TGS. Genji 2. Well, I will, it's just opinion afterall. Or do you want a technical discussion? Anyway...


I'm currently playing Genji and I have to tell you about something that's got me rather suspicious. After watching the TGS demo of Genji 2 and then seeing the CG sequences in Genji... well, frankly I think they're the same. Watch the assets and animation (the first sequence is kinda hard to tell, so watch others) and the, for lack of a better word, feel of the CGs and then watch the TGS trailer. EXACTLY the same. I have a feeling they used Genji CG as a testing ground for PS3 Genji 2 game engine. That might be some proof of these things being doable.

Heavenly Sword is realtime, only the face at the very begining wasn't, this has been confirmed by our own DeanoC.

MGS is indeed achievable as Kojima himself has showed it off running in realtime at 60fps on evaluation kits and even then he's said that they weren't aiming for graphics (more than likely PR, but Kojima's a pretty good guy about these sort of things).

Final Fantasy VII was, I imagine, possible, but only in a scripted sense. Not in game realtime. I think back to the FF8 Demo for the PS2, and how it indeed was realtime, but the environment was severly scaled down and very tricks of the eye were used and so forth. The zoom out of Midgul offers some confidence, though, that FFPS3 will be somewhat closer than FFPS2 was to their respective demos.

Warhawk actually seems reasonable after seeing the TGS trailer or so I feel. Just a gut feeling, really, the planes don't look all that detailed and I'm sure you could make heavy use of instancing since there's no animation that would throw people off. Oh noes, all the propellers are spinning at the same time!!

Tekken... I PRAY it's possible!! Though realistically I can't believe we'll see something that good. It's seriously on the level of Tekken CG. I simply can't wrap my head around that possability, especially if they do indeed reuse the current arcade engine like some have been saying. Yeah, it's 2 or 4 (TTT2 reference) characters on screen and the team has worked some crazy magic before, but not so early. Maybe, if TTT2 turn out to be real pretty then Tekken 6 MIGHT look like that.

Killzone and Motorstorm are the hardest to believe simply due to IQ and the fact that KZ2 was confirmed to be CG. I still think those assets are in game. I'm betting though that the super pretty effects won't be as prelevant, like the explosion at the end. THe mud slinging I think is entirely possible, we already saw the dirty windsheilds in PGR3, and that's being rushed.

Sonic, Fifth Phantom Saga, Gundam, F1 Racing, and I-8 seem entirely possible, since they're not all that impressive. Lair should also be realtime, considering Factor 5 keeps saying "this is ingame footage". It could be a lie, but that's way too straight faced a lie to be a lie IMO.

Well, I'm bored. If you read all this then thanks. Too bad it's not really technical, but meh.

 

[Luminescent]

I would just like to see some games that are not visually overly ambitious with quantity, or number of effects, but try to pump out the effects at crisp pristine quality, with full AA and texture filtering, without cutting IQ corners.

 

[SMOKE]

Everything you seen in video form or another for the PS3 will and can be achievable, framrate is the only issue those types of graphics have going against it. Only a majority of what you see will be from 1st party devs that are going to use and benefit from the use of the BR-D to enable us gamers to get that "shock and awe" feeling everyones been looking for. I am amazed at what i was shown behind the doors at TGS that was playable on the PS3, and its damn good stuff coming from ALPHA kits that look more impressive than 360s final kits.

If any of you stopped by you local walmart lately and had the chance to play the 360, how did you feel walking away from it. I mean King Kong looked like PS2-ish graphics and CoD2 looked like a xbox title thats just went under the knife a little. I a so not impressed with the 360 due to the lack of enticement from games like Madden and 2K6, Tiger Woods only has 6 holes I heard. What kind of shit is that and the system is due out in less than a month now. I think DOA4 looks ok but nothing that couldnt be done on the xbox1, KK played like crap on the T-rex fighting demo they have it felt sluggish ( I was expecting a fluid fighting system with the big ape and it didnt do it on the demo maybe in real game you can change the controls) But thats my opinon I just dont see it being done on both platforms but done well by some devs on Sonys team.

 

[scooby_dooby]

That's the 2nd time someone has said HS was realtime.

Realtime means exactly that, realtime, it doesn't mean 5FPS rendered together and played back at 60FPS.

 

[Josh378]

I think Killzone is the Bar set for both console.....


Don't expect KZ quality in the next 3-4 years.....

I may be ossible with a few "tricks" to simmulate the Demo, but KZ may in fact be a PS4 or Xbox3 game demo next-next geN!!!

-Josh378

 

[SirTendeth]

As was pointed out in the start of the thread- Don’t make this a console vs. console discussion please.

This is meant to be about the possibility of end of cycle games, looking like current demos.

It should be common knowledge that making a capability to achieve a certain level of graphics, exclusive to a certain console will cause the thread to derail into a war. Instead of a prediction of wear the future of console graphics may take us.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Killzone and Motorstorm are the hardest to believe simply due to IQ and the fact that KZ2 was confirmed to be CG. I still think those assets are in game.

It's been discussed several times: my friend worked on that movie. All the assets were made within the studio, Guerilla only had creative input. The polygon counts are way beyond realtime level (ie. close to million triangles even on the characters).

 

[scooby_dooby]

I think we'll see stuff similar GRAPHICALLY to what was shown in the tech demo's but not until well into 2008-2009.

What we won't see is the amazing cinematic feel, and perfectly scripted events/action that you saw in the KZ Movie.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

Ah, sorry, Laa-yosh. I was under the impression that the character assets were never confirmed to be CG. My bad.

 

[Josh378]

Yosh, I mean a game like LAIR is said to have 100-170K of polygons per dragon(1st gen game)...and we seen the video of the many dragons on screen...who know what each system can do once developers truly work on the systems...Killzone might be achieveable for next gen polygon-wise, just the effects is the main problem.....

Can't they create technique(s) to simmulate the effects in KZ...and come close enough to fool the casual eye? It would make perfect sense...

All you want is eye-candy, Not Spec candy.....

-Josh378

 

[DeanoC]

That's the 2nd time someone has said HS was realtime.

Realtime means exactly that, realtime, it doesn't mean 5FPS rendered together and played back at 60FPS.

The main combat sequence of HS E3 demo was largely real-time (largely in the sense that we still have slow downs due to unoptimsied code, for example the first time an effect is triggered, we get a stall as something loads. Obviously the final version we have it pre-loaded etc.) ... The army scene was the slow bit.

Just so its absolutely clear, the main fight sequences seen in the HS E3 trailer (bar a bit of post-processing) are playable in real-time now. When you see the fight in HS, your seeing the actual in-game footage in real-time.

The graphical quality is also likely to go up quite considerable before release...

 

[SirTendeth]

I becoming more convinced that the reason isn’t predominantly the look of a single image, but rather the controlled composition of the demos and trailers, combined with more fluid animation.

Look at Gears- still shots look impressively lit and detailed. But the videos show the action from the standard camera view, with the animation lacking true realism. This gives the overall impression that it’s not as good as Killzone.

Could some one post to favorable pics of each to illustrate this for me?

It will be difficult to completely eliminate the occasional jerkiness of in game animation, because I not sure it’s a “hardwareâ€￾ problem. And I don’t see truly cinematic camera angle ever making sense for playing the overwhelming majority of game types.

 

[avaya]

The main combat sequence of HS E3 demo was largely real-time (largely in the sense that we still have slow downs due to unoptimsied code, for example the first time an effect is triggered, we get a stall as something loads. Obviously the final version we have it pre-loaded etc.) ... The army scene was the slow bit.

Just so its absolutely clear, the main fight sequences seen in the HS E3 trailer (bar a bit of post-processing) are playable in real-time now. When you see the fight in HS, your seeing the actual in-game footage in real-time.

The graphical quality is also likely to go up quite considerable before release...

R....S....X? or SPEs?

NDA I'm sure

 

[Josh378]

R....S....X? or SPEs?

NDA I'm sure

Don't tempt the man.....(please PM me, I can keep a secret )

-Jsh378