What is the most important feature of new HDTV LCD panels in Q1/2006?

[pascal]

Most important feature of new HDTV LCD panels in Q1/2006?

This time it is a poll specifically for new HDTV LCDs (not PC LCDs) panels in Q1/2006.
The main concern is the panel, not the electronics around it (including interfaces).

The options are:
- color accuracy
- response time
- contrast range
- brightness
- other (specify)

IMHO the most important is contrast range, followed by response time.
Most HDTVs LCDs are 8 bit panels and most new LCDs are very bright. Most have 720p as native resolution. Most new LCDs are 12ms or 8ms, but sometimes people get some ghost or blur.

There is another thread here with some interresting opinions: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26692

 

[AlphaWolf]

I think it's a combination of all of them. Increasing contrast to 1:10000000 is pointless if they can't get decent color and refresh rates.

 

[pascal]

I understand AlphaWolf, but lets say that all features are at least aceptable, then which one will make the biggest difference?

 

[London Geezer]

You mean, what's the most important feature to look at when buying a new LCD HDTV?

It's really a balance between response time and contrast ratio, only the problem is that by looking at the specs the manufacturers give you, it's obvious you only get one side of the story - the one the manufacturers give you, which obviously is always there to make you buy their set.

These days most sets are 12ms which is more than good enough for gaming - what's gonna stress the sets the most in terms of speed.

Also, new sets can reproduce billions of colours, the Bravia's, the Samsung M-series, the Panasonic Viera, so that takes care about any worry about colour reproduction.

What you really need to look at, which is not in the specs, is the black levels. Manufacturers will throw big contrast ratio's at you to make their set look impressive, but what you really should care about is how the set handles black levels, and "cheaper" sets are not very impressive with that - black not being black, dark areas losing detail etc...

All LCD's today are very bright so you shouldn't worry about that, although you might want to see how to decrease the backlight output, as by default it's on maximum settings which makes the sets very bright and "more impressive" at first glance, but also makes the blacks not very black (the black pixels can only block so much light from the set, so by decreasing the backlight, you'll get darker blacks, still retaining quite bright colours where they're needed)

What you REALLY need to look at is how the set handles standard definition sources, if you're going to watch normal TV on it. Not sure what Brazil's plans on HD broadcasts are, but i expect you'll be in the same boat as Europe, if not worse.
If you're going to watch normal TV on it, you need to be careful because only the expensive sets can give you a picture that can rival a CRT with crappy analog signals. All others without advanced processing engines will show the analog signals in all their glory, all the little flaws and lines and block and colour bleed in their glory. That's the nature of LCD, without a big fat chip trying to smooth out the images, the set will naturally display every flaw in detail.

 

[randycat99]

"billions" of colors? C'mon...that would be like 30-bit color. I'd think "millions" would be more plausible? Also the mechanics of LCD's seem to work out to better color rendition at odds with better response time- it's one at the expense of the other.

On the case of analog signals displayed on LCD- there's also the issue of the A/D conversion. Good quality sampling and conversion into digital requires some robust equipment- stuff not typically found on integrated video boards of an LCD display. It's not so much the LCD panel showing every flaw in the video, rather the end result of the most rudimentary of A/D sampling circuitry (something that will get the job done w/o blowing the cost to many times the LCD display, itself). The same issues are often found in hdd recorders when recording analog video. A lot of it simply comes down to the sampling of the analog signal and the digital encoding to compressed format. Good D/A conversion is a piece of cake compared to good A/D conversion, especially when it comes to something as complex as video.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I understand AlphaWolf, but lets say that all features are at least aceptable, then which one will make the biggest difference?

I'd still want them to scale up equally more or less. I'd rather have very good in all 3 than exceptional in just one and avg in the other 2. I'm excluding brightness here because I don't think its particularily important in a TV display as they all should be more than required in this area. If you were going to use it as a monitor in an office situation brightness might be a factor.

<edit>
randy: There are panels that can display over a billion colors.

 

[London Geezer]

"billions" of colors? C'mon...that would be like 30-bit color. I'd think "millions" would be more plausible? Also the mechanics of LCD's seem to work out to better color rendition at odds with better response time- it's one at the expense of the other.

Hey don't shoot the messenger, look here:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/technology/viera-explained.html

That's one set with a claimed 8 billion or so colours... The Sony Bravia's and now also the Samsung M-series use 10-bit processing (per channel obviously, so that's really 30-bit) to achieve 6.4 billion colours - they use the same panels after all. These two also have a claimed 8ms response time. The Viera is quoted at 12-16ms.

Or, well, that's what they say anyway

 

[randycat99]

Hey don't shoot the messenger, look here:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/technology/viera-explained.html

That's one set with a claimed 8 billion or so colours... The Sony Bravia's and now also the Samsung M-series use 10-bit processing (per channel obviously, so that's really 30-bit) to achieve 6.4 billion colours - they use the same panels after all. These two also have a claimed 8ms response time. The Viera is quoted at 12-16ms.

Or, well, that's what they say anyway

I think the link to that panasonic refers to a plasma display doing that "billions" of colors.

On the issue of 10-bit processing being used by various makers, you can imagine how easily liberties can be taken with that meaning, right? This is more about adding some mathematical headroom for all of that postprocessing that goes on to pretty up the image for final display (sort of like in audio, where they master in 24-bit, and then export at 16-bit, which is ultimately quite adequate for the end user). The intent is to minimize/mitigate any coarse error/artifacts that could come from the postprocessing, rather than spontaneously give you "30-bit video" from an inherently sub-24-bit video feed. That's just talking about internal processing. The actual capabilities of the LCD panel is another matter altogether. That's my take on it, at least.

 

[London Geezer]

I think the link to that panasonic refers to a plasma display doing that "billions" of colors.

On the issue of 10-bit processing being used by various makers, you can imagine how easily liberties can be taken with that meaning, right? This is more about adding some mathematical headroom for all of that postprocessing that goes on to pretty up the image for final display (sort of like in audio, where they master in 24-bit, and then export at 16-bit, which is ultimately quite adequate for the end user). The intent is to minimize/mitigate any coarse error/artifacts that could come from the postprocessing, rather than spontaneously give you "30-bit video" from an inherently sub-24-bit video feed. That's just talking about internal processing. The actual capabilities of the LCD panel is another matter altogether. That's my take on it, at least.

Well yes, of course i meant that it's only the processing that's doing 10bit, that why i wrote

The Sony Bravia's and now also the Samsung M-series use 10-bit processing (per channel obviously, so that's really 30-bit) to achieve 6.4 billion colours

And yes, that panasonic is a LCD, the VIERA processing is on the plasmas and also the LCDs...

I don't know how many colours the panels actually output, but 10bit processing has being used in top LCDs for a while. I think some even do 12bit and 14 bit per channel, but i'm not sure if that actually makes a difference...

 

[randycat99]

Ok, I see what you are saying, but can you imagine all the people that read "10/12 bit processing" in the literature and then conclude that LCD panels have somehow broken through that 24-bit color "wall", let alone reached it to begin with?

It's sort of the same situation with the wilder and wilder contrast ratio specs that are bandied about in LCD's literature (not saying that there aren't some very special and expensive cases that are taking it to a new level). 500, 1000, 2000...and it the reader would imagine that black level should be a nonissue with specs like that. However, all this contrast ratio is going into the brighter end of the range to make the number higher, while the dark end really hasn't changed that much for the better.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Ok, I see what you are saying, but can you imagine all the people that read "10/12 bit processing" in the literature and then conclude that LCD panels have somehow broken through that 24-bit color "wall", let alone reached it to begin with?

It's sort of the same situation with the wilder and wilder contrast ratio specs that are bandied about in LCD's literature (not saying that there aren't some very special and expensive cases that are taking it to a new level). 500, 1000, 2000...and it the reader would imagine that black level should be a nonissue with specs like that. However, all this contrast ratio is going into the brighter end of the range to make the number higher, while the dark end really hasn't changed that much for the better.

Who said 24 bit was a wall?

 

[Moloch]

Accurate colors and black levels I'd say, even though I'm far from being to able afford such things.
But alot of people will buy big HDTVs even if they have poor black levels and inaccurate colors, you really need to show them how it should look in order for them to really understand.

 

[randycat99]

It's a "wall" for as long as we are dealing with 3 color elements, each with 8-bits of gradiation, to make the physical pixel we see on a display.

 

[AlphaWolf]

It's a "wall" for as long as we are dealing with 3 color elements, each with 8-bits of gradiation, to make the physical pixel we see on a display.

Huh? Why does it need to be 8bits of gradiation? Are you saying that is some sort of absolute limit of our perceptions?

 

[randycat99]

You are looking for an argument that isn't there. I'm not talking about 8-bits of gradations as a limit of human eyesight (because it's clear to me that it isn't, though it is close). I'm talking about the actual performance of the LCD elements that make up an LCD screen, and then the afterwards, the video that is fed to these screens, and then afterwards the data compression that is applied to the digital video that gets fed to these screens...

 

[Brimstone]

This time it is a poll specifically for new HDTV LCDs (not PC LCDs) panels in Q1/2006.
The main concern is the panel, not the electronics around it (including interfaces).

The options are:
- color accuracy
- response time
- contrast range
- brightness
- other (specify)

IMHO the most important is contrast range, followed by response time.
Most HDTVs LCDs are 8 bit panels and most new LCDs are very bright. Most have 720p as native resolution. Most new LCDs are 12ms or 8ms, but sometimes people get some ghost or blur.

There is another thread here with some interresting opinions: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26692

OCB (Optically Compensated Bend) LCD's are a big step forward for LCD displays. You get 5ms response times and wider viewing angles. Combine that with LED backlights for better color reproduction. These displays should be out in full force from Samsung and Toshiba in 2006.

 

[London Geezer]

OCB (Optically Compensated Bend) LCD's are a big step forward for LCD displays. You get 5ms response times and wider viewing angles. Combine that with LED backlights for better color reproduction. These displays should be out in full force from Samsung and Toshiba in 2006.

Philips is also bringing out ClearLCD next month, which is meant to be the saviour of black levels on LCD. But i'm a bit sceptical. They'll license the tech though, so i guess it's all good in the end, as people will develop on it if there are flaws or shortcomings.

 

[booomups]

blacklevels.. so i voted for contrast..... since it should mean the same (should... i know its not the same)


i had a beamer once..... and the lack of a good tasty black made me really sad.

regarding more accurate colors than now.... i really dont think many people care about that...... except for the black levels......


but most important is sice and price anyway ;-)

 

[V3]

All those features are important, but I vote other since I really want reasonable size LCD with the cinemascope aspect (2.35:1 I think or maybe wider). Anyone know of such model out on the market or coming soon ?