What is Forwards Compatibility? *spawn*

[liolio]

Well, if it is back compatible, it would be the same for both systems. There could be some backlash, but people could act rationally for once, they are used now to this incremental updates in almost every other appliance.

Some did you see the reaction to the actually reasonable MSFT online policies? Or any others reactions on any topics? I mean we are face with a generation that will whine as hell if they don't get what they think they want. More and more movies are not movies with interesting stories but fan services. Incremental update is nothing new, it has been here forever since technical progress appear... it is not for every market. Console are not an appliance, what they are is a consistent target for game developers to target. And it is not only about the people there is publishers supports.

Matching whatever level of price-performance system Sony introduces could potentially get some of the lost Xbox owners, or get some of the millions who haven´t upgraded yet.

We don't know what are Sony plan with Neo, but I mean Neo and Morpheus... People acting as IF Sony will unleash those 4TFLOPS on devs telling do as they are pleased are going with the least likely usage of the extra power of the system. It may happen but against all odds.

Well, We´ll see at E3, but i get the feeling that Sony is acting the same like Ms did, many first/second parties are devoting resources towards VR.

Well that is another matter, MSFT has no tech ready we know off. VR will not work in my opinion. We are in bubble overall, and tech do not escape that, people are trying everything because money is cheap and real growth is nowhere near where stocks valuations imply, imho it will bust... Too many constraints, too costly. If Sony is wise they will ask good money to sweeten the risk.

So, I don´t see how Ms could break their userbase, if software carries over both systems.

Explain how you are not breaking your userbase if your present devs with two differents systems?
It is like saying the Wii did not break the GC userbase, in some ways it has not but that is a twisted ways of seeing things though.
People need to get things straight, a software approach can make system forward compatible without facing the burden usually associated with hardware BC (Nintendo knows well about that...), now one a NEW system is available what you have is a NEW system that is backward compatible. From the costumer POV how it is achieved is irrelevant and most will never get it or even care about it. The point is it is a new system, hence by definition its userbase starts from zero.
BC changes things wrt to the available software library but that's it.
More specifically wrt the XB1, if MSFT can have other design to run the games, games are still not 'forward compatible" as PC titles are, aka you won't be able to improve any setting.

The argument that nowadays games are closer to PC and port are so easy, etc. is pushing it a little when the industry is close to breaking, when they are close to failing the high standard they are setting to themselves. The fate of the last BATMAN, a big AAA franchise, is a testament to that.

EDIT
I think we are faced with the nasty effect of constant "newspeak" and neologism. New words are created as containers for concepts and ideas to define reality, real things, yet people come to think that the word they are using are to escape the reality face by the thing the word describes. In effect lets look at "an incremental upgrade", it comes loaded with meaning yet it tends to escape the primary one aka it is a new product. Careful people the end game of such decaying in our way of thinking has been depicted and it is not a beautiful thing.

 

[MrFox]

EDIT
I think we are faced with the nasty effect of constant "newspeak" and neologism. New words are created as containers for concepts and ideas to define reality, real things, yet people come to think that the word they are using are to escape the reality face by the thing the word describes. In effect lets look at "an incremental upgrade", it comes loaded with meaning yet it tends to escape the primary one aka it is a new product. Careful people the end game of such decaying in our way of thinking has been depicted and it is not a beautiful thing.

I for one am allergic to the word "innovation". Because the Party claims innovation is automatically doubleplusgood.

 

[bunge]

Explain how you are not breaking your userbase if your present devs with two differents systems?
It is like saying the Wii did not break the GCuserbase, in some ways it has not but that is atwisted ways of seeing things though.

It can work, but would have to follow the GameBoy model. I think that's basically what everyone is thinking will happen.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It can work, but would have to follow the GameBoy model. I think that's basically what everyone is thinking will happen.

It works all over the place. Games consoles are only systems where an ecosystem is anchored around a single hardware specification yet people cling to this argument like a comfort blanket. They are happy to ignore iOS, Android and Windows and Xbox 360 which had a much greater capability split: HDD and non-HDD.

Devs adapt, they are not idiots. Consumers adapt, they are used to this everywhere else.

 

[liolio]

@Grall, since current software will be forwards compatible with it, what do you consider to be "next generation"?

Forward compatible? The new system may be backward compatible but the software is not forward compatible: setting can't be changed like on PC to benefit from improved hardware, it is not going " forward". It is legacy software running on a compatible system.

 

[Globalisateur]

Forward compatible? The new system may be backward compatible but the software is not forward compatible: setting can't be changed like on PC to benefit from improved hardware, it is not going " forward". It is legacy software running on a compatible system.

The software currently developed for current PS4 will be compatible with the 'forward' PS4 iteration: Neo.

The software is 'forward' compatible on a 'backward' compatible hardware.

 

[Rodéric]

Software could add Neo specific code today and be released before the console, in which case it would forward compatible, would it not ?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Forward compatible? The new system may be backward compatible but the software is not forward compatible: setting can't be changed like on PC to benefit from improved hardware, it is not going " forward". It is legacy software running on a compatible system.

I disagree with that interpretation of forwards compatibility. If the executable can run without modification, it's forwards compatible. Has nothing to do with being able to change settings.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Software could add Neo specific code today and be released before the console, in which case it would forward compatible, would it not ?

I'm sure I read that Neo-enhanced titles can be submitted to Sony from August/September so they are ready for the console launch.

 

[liolio]

The software currently developed for current PS4 will be compatible with the 'forward' PS4 iteration: Neo.

The software is 'forward' compatible on a 'backward' compatible hardware.

Well changing wording just changes that: wording. It is the other way around the new system will runs software designed for the older. It is likely that the older system will still be the main target for development and that the new hardware will run said software in compatibility mode.
Scott_ARm it is the same thing, we call system compatible system that can run legacy software since forever. HOw something can be forward compatible with something that did not exist at its inception?

It is getting nothing short of ridiculous, like walking on the head...

 

[3dilettante]

Well changing wording just changes that: wording. It is the other way around the new system will runs software designed for the older. It is likely that the older system will still be the main target for development and that the new hardware will run said software in compatibility mode.
Scott_ARm it is the same thing, we call system compatible system that can run legacy software since forever. HOw something can be forward compatible with something that did not exist at its inception?

It is getting nothing short of ridiculous, like walking on the head...

Something can be designed to be forward compatible if the designers have the mindset and goal of allowing for a succession of implementations that can handle the formats and input of different versions without blowing up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_compatibility

A forward-compatible PS4 would be able to take Neo-targeted software and either revert or ignore portions of it in a way that allows some kind of reasonable behavior, like a text editor ignoring version 2's fancy new fonts but still showing text. Given the complexity of the systems and the difficulty of dynamically knowing what older function is "good enough" or what new hooks can be ignored, and the rumor that there is separate code for the versions, it does not sound like the PS4 is forward-compatible, whereas it appears Neo can handle software for the PS4 and would be backwards-compatible.

 

[liolio]

Something can be designed to be forward compatible if the designers have the mindset and goal of allowing for a succession of implementations that can handle the formats and input of different versions without blowing up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_compatibility

A forward-compatible PS4 would be able to take Neo-targeted software and either revert or ignore portions of it in a way that allows some kind of reasonable behavior, like a text editor ignoring version 2's fancy new fonts but still showing text. Given the complexity of the systems and the difficulty of dynamically knowing what older function is "good enough" or what new hooks can be ignored, and the rumor that there is separate code for the versions, it does not sound like the PS4 is forward-compatible, whereas it appears Neo can handle software for the PS4 and would be backwards-compatible.

Thanks for the detail, though I do get what forward compatibility, a higher level of abstraction helps (which consoles have been adverse too for a long while).
The issue is that the world is used in the wrong way or so loosely to the point no longer see a new system when there is one, like ignoring the space time continuum.
In effect it is like people stating the Whatever Nintendo software was software compatible when it is actually the follows up designs that were meant to run legacy software.
It is like with power and FLOPS during the times we were speculations about this gen of console and the PS4 neo type of hardware was a given for so many people. Now people through wording are trying to elude away the complication introducing a system with significantly improved capabilities presents to the actors involved (Sony, the publishers). It is all of sudden everything is a given from Zen cores to/ Cat core, to polaris, to Sony letting use the available power as devs see fit, etc. etc.

Forward compatibility is a concept but it is used as a word which allows to easily elude lots of the points you just made. I think our pocs our closer than the pov of most the others posters about a lot of the matter on the topic: one primary thing being we don't yet but lets not pretend there is anything trivial to it from which we can further speculate when speculation should happen at the prior step.

 

[milk]

Gameboy color had both exemples of backward and foward compatibility. When released it could run original gb games, but most titles launched for the first year or so since, targeted the original gb, with gbc apecific code and and assets (actual sprites stayed the same, but had pallets assigned to them, which the first gb simply ignored)
According to the rumors, that's what sony is requiring of all titles starting some month I don't remember in the second half of this year. This is much like a pc game with configurable settings, just that there are only 2 possible hardware types, and the software automatically chooses the set of settings they find most appropriate for each system.
What lacks in this system to satisfy your specific definition?

 

[Michellstar]

Some did you see the reaction to the actually reasonable MSFT online policies? Or any others reactions on any topics? I mean we are face with a generation that will whine as hell if they don't get what they think they want. More and more movies are not movies with interesting stories but fan services.

Yes, I remember. It was sad and hilarious at the same time, in retrospective it was almost a non issue and the biggest mistake was a terrible terrible PR handling.

About fan-service et al, well those companies must follow the money, they don´t produce multi million franchises for the sake of art.

Incremental update is nothing new, it has been here forever since technical progress appear... it is not for every market. Console are not an appliance, what they are is a consistent target for game developers to target. And it is not only about the people there is publishers supports.
We don't know what are Sony plan with Neo, but I mean Neo and Morpheus... People acting as IF Sony will unleash those 4TFLOPS on devs telling do as they are pleased are going with the least likely usage of the extra power of the system. It may happen but against all odds.

This is the crux of the matter since we knew some info about PS4k, it goes against common wisdom, or this traditional market as we know it. What´s the point of this mid-gen refresh, given PS4 dominance??

Not taking advantage of those extra flops, more than double of the base model would be an insane waste of silicon, and money.

MSFT has no tech ready we know off. VR will not work in my opinion. We are in bubble overall, and tech do not escape that, people are trying everything because money is cheap and real growth is nowhere near where stocks valuations imply, imho it will bust... Too many constraints, too costly. If Sony is wise they will ask good money to sweeten the risk.

Ms at this point i believe is taking a "wait and see" attitude, if this VR thing succeeds, they could come up with their own solution (buying into the market with whatever start-up they find) or making Occulus/Vive compatible.

Explain how you are not breaking your userbase if your present devs with two differents systems?
It is like saying the Wii did not break the GC userbase, in some ways it has not but that is a twisted ways of seeing things though.
People need to get things straight, a software approach can make system forward compatible without facing the burden usually associated with hardware BC (Nintendo knows well about that...), now one a NEW system is available what you have is a NEW system that is backward compatible. From the costumer POV how it is achieved is irrelevant and most will never get it or even care about it. The point is it is a new system, hence by definition its userbase starts from zero.
BC changes things wrt to the available software library but that's it.
More specifically wrt the XB1, if MSFT can have other design to run the games, games are still not 'forward compatible" as PC titles are, aka you won't be able to improve any setting.

The argument that nowadays games are closer to PC and port are so easy, etc. is pushing it a little when the industry is close to breaking, when they are close to failing the high standard they are setting to themselves. The fate of the last BATMAN, a big AAA franchise, is a testament to that.

EDIT
I think we are faced with the nasty effect of constant "newspeak" and neologism. New words are created as containers for concepts and ideas to define reality, real things, yet people come to think that the word they are using are to escape the reality face by the thing the word describes. In effect lets look at "an incremental upgrade", it comes loaded with meaning yet it tends to escape the primary one aka it is a new product. Careful people the end game of such decaying in our way of thinking has been depicted and it is not a beautiful thing.

I see that the post has been swanned, about forward compatibility lol

I´ve not much to say, under this precise definition, no. Current consoles won´t be, and much more work will be made by devs. Given sony position, (total market dominance) it will pull this off. I belive

EDIT:

About splitting their userbase, I don´t know, lol, if it belongs here any more.
Well, from the user POV if you go to the shop and you only find one game with the ps4 label.
You install it, and you multiplay it against both models, what´s under the hood, be it a multi-executable, or different .inis it´s not our problem. It is a problem for Sony, devs and publishers to solve.

Yes, if they start to release Neo only games, it will be the same as a new gen, but this is not going to happen

 

[liolio]

About fan-service et al, well those companies must follow the money, they don´t produce multi million franchises for the sake of art.

Well cinema use to have some artistic value even though it was meant to make money too. Though the real issue to me is that you have a lot of mostly nobody that think they know better than somebody which is where he is because is one of the top guys at his job. It is like in cuisine going to Gordon Ramsey and telling him what you want him to do and how => you will rightful be put back in your place and shown the exit.
People spend on money on what they think is good, if they can no longer see what is good, it is a different matter, lack of culture or education, self centered to oblivion, etc.

EDIT
If I were getting into what I think is the stench of nowadays decadence, I would that culture is both a subproduct and an abstraction of society, if the society is creating and accumulating wealth it will show, if it does not... Culture or the sub-culture we have now, or less then that "it has to make money".. is a better show-offs for how dysfunctional our societies are and how much of a scheme those tertiary type of societies are: there is nothing to abstract from....

 

[Jwm]

Software could add Neo specific code today and be released before the console, in which case it would forward compatible, would it not ?

Or the devs go back and add in the code snippets where needed for things like controller mapping.

#IFNEO
Button A = Button E
#ELSE
Button A = Button O
#ENDIF

Or like you said, if they already have the docs for such new forward compatible systems they could already be adding them in. Or they recompile the game packages and things are automagically changed (my XNA code for a Windows Phone 7 launch app still works fine on Win Phone 10, same code works on 360 with #IF statements in a few spots) for the new system with no work needed by the original dev team or 3rd party houses (like Gears and Halo).