What does everyone think about the ATI video presentation?

[Onde Pik]

ATI's launch. I think the "Title Club" thing was kinda lame, but I guess its true that it works better when ur actually there.


GF4 FX vs. R9200.

Well ATI are clearly stating the exact specs and compatibility of the R9200. So its kinda paranoid to say "It is diliberately meant to mislead ppl into thinking that the 9xxx means DX9". Fact is that it is a new product, and if ATI were to introduce it as the R8600 it wasnt gonna sell dick. They chose 9200 for obvious PR reasons. But I dont think it was to mislead ppl but rather to not doom the card before they got it out. See what happened to the GF2TI, how many were sold???

U could say that NV didnt want to doom their card either with the GF4MX, by calling it GF3. But it was a good deal more deceptive. First of all the GF4MX didnt even classyfy as a GF3 equivalent. So Calling it GF4 is a bit much. Coupled with the fact that Nvidia claimed it to be a DX8 card (DX8,1 even? ) it leaves little room for good will. Besides, some would argue that the MX should never have been released, cause if it being little more than a shined up GF256.


And the GFFX 5200, I have serious doubts about them getting DX9 into the 80$ price range. Especially after that stunt they pulled with the GF4MX.

 

[JC]

The first chips that had any non trivial support from IHVs, was Voodoo Graphics, Rendition Verite, and PowerVR PCX1/2.

The first with non trivial support was 300SX, the first hardcore 3DBlaster_VLB gamers began in the PC world with hacked Intergraph PCI graphic drivers for D3D and OpenGL supports. Creative's driver support was lacking.

 

[Mulciber]

That being said, the first round of real, honest-to-goodness "actually useful" 3D chips included the Voodoo Graphics, Rendition Verite 1000, and the PowerVR PCX 1/2.

NV1 and 300SX were the very first pioneer 3D consumer grade hardware chipsets to kick start PC world (Diamond Edge3D_NV1 - $349, Creative Labs' 3D Blaster VLB_300SX - $329 - ComputerCity Thanksgiving '95).

You didn't say anything that I didn't.

Yes, the NV1 and GiGi were first in actual retail boards. However, their actual "usefulness" was limited (with no exaggeration) to the pack-in titles that came with the hardware. No actual D3D support (these cards shipped before the first version of D3D was available), and no third party support beyond the pack-ins IIRC. Pranzer Dragoon, Flight Unlimited...(Though it wouldn't surprise me to learn if there were one or two other titles...)

The first chips that had any non trivial support from IHVs, was Voodoo Graphics, Rendition Verite, and PowerVR PCX1/2.

well, it all depends on how we're looking at. I'd be willing to bet that the riva128 had FAR higher market penitration that the voodoo1 or voodoo2. not only that, but it also fully supported D3D and OpenGL, where the voodoos only supported glide and minigl. the verites only really performed exeptionally with their proprietary API as well IIRC, but I was just getting into gaming at the time, so I could be mistaken.

 

[John Reynolds]

well, it all depends on how we're looking at. I'd be willing to bet that the riva128 had FAR higher market penitration that the voodoo1 or voodoo2. not only that, but it also fully supported D3D and OpenGL, where the voodoos only supported glide and minigl. the verites only really performed exeptionally with their proprietary API as well IIRC, but I was just getting into gaming at the time, so I could be mistaken.

The V1/2 supported D3D, too.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Voodoo'd supported DX. In fact thats what drove me to them after watching the horrible mess PowerVR made of MDK.

 

[Bjorn]

There are some if you read through the thread that equate the Radeon 9000 to the GF4MX scenerio.(sorry I am not going to pull these quotes if you simply read you can see this.)

There's a big difference between equating the scenarios and claiming that the GF 4 MX is a DX 8 card.

No, christ they could have put out a low end DX8 part ages ago and they put up with a lot of critique about it for a reason. They did it on purpose for some reason, just why is another matter. I guess they were so addicted to the low end margins on the MX OEM deals that they simply didn't want to compete directly with ATi on the low end DX8 parts. They marketed the Geforce 4 MX as a DX8 part even though it was not a low end DX8 part at all. Nvidia didn't "learn" anything they did it on purpose.

Of course they did it on purpose. Just like they're now releasing a budget DX 9 part on purpose. The thing with the FX 5200 is that it's almost the opposite thing as with the GF 4 MX. The MX borrowed "FSAA/raw speed" optimizations from next generation products, the FX 5200 takes the features and removes "FSAA/raw speed" optimizations. And the question is why ?

There's of course no single reason for this but i would assume that the criticism they got with the GF 4 MX is at least one factor in this.
Less criticism, more products sold. At least most of the time

 

[Pete]

Yeah, 8500 and...8500 LE!!! I take it this is a joke?

Well, didn't they have an 8700 and 8800 in their FireGL cards? (BTW, don't forget the LELE. ) Still, they could've done what I said below and still been OK.

Actually, people harping on the 9000 truly show they didn't pay attention to ATI's clear and concise definition of their naming convention. The first number denotes the generation, and the remaining numbers denote the performace/feature level within that generation

I don't consider that naming scheme clear and/or concise, unless you mean clear as mud. I'd prefer them sticking with a DX-compliance scheme, but that's the Joe Sixpack in me speaking. I don't think ATi clearly explains that scheme on any of their cards' retail boxes. The RV250 should've been the 8400, and the RV280 should've been the 8400-8x if it was clocked similarly, or the 8600 if it was upclocked.

JC has spoken.

Don't mock Him!

Another thing, does nV mean DX9 for $79 MSRP, or $79 after normal markdowns? ATI did the same thing with the 9000, IIRC. Again, lame.

 

[Mulciber]

Voodoo'd supported DX. In fact thats what drove me to them after watching the horrible mess PowerVR made of MDK.

Yes, I was mistaken I dont recall the D3D support in my voodoo2 or voodoo3 being very good though. usually a lot less performance than while operating in glide. I had a viper330 that i used in some games at the time, but not many because glide support was such a necessity back then.

 

[DemoCoder]

One benefit of GLIDE was that I always ran NT, and until Windows 2000, there was no HW directX support in Windows NT, but OpenGl and Glide ran fine another NT.

On the other hand, on the Voodoo1, I got irritated big time by the lack of integrated 2D and the fact that if a game crashed in Glide, the 2D display wouldn't be switched back automatically. Some games had problems with ALT-Tabing out as well. I had to buy an external VGA switch to deal with it.

One of the things I liked about the Riva128 was that it delivered 2D and better drivers compared to the disaster that was the Voodoo Rush

 

[Simon F]

Voodoo'd supported DX. In fact thats what drove me to them after watching the horrible mess PowerVR made of MDK.

Really going off-topic here but I played a bit of MDK on PCX1/2 and didn't see any problem.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Ooo, god - I remember it was missing textures and generally making a horrible mess of things. Don't know what drivers that was I just remember the Voodoo sorting all of that out.

 

[DeanoC]

Ooo, god - I remember it was missing textures and generally making a horrible mess of things. Don't know what drivers that was I just remember the Voodoo sorting all of that out.

Please can we not discuss the state of video cards and there drivers in the Dx3/Dx5 days, for coders of a certain age it brings back nasty flashbacks

I have horror stories about almost every one of the chips of that era. If it hadn't been the good work PowerVR did on Holly, PowerVR would still be a swear word (Holly made up for the mistakes made on PowerVR series 1 though, she was lovely).

Even the beloved Voodoo1 had it share of 'interesting' drivers.

 

[Mr_Maximus]

Voodoo'd supported DX. In fact thats what drove me to them after watching the horrible mess PowerVR made of MDK.

I had to join the forums just to say, this is exactly the reason I defected to the 3DFX camp. PVR1 ended up being the most expensive game demo I ever bought (single course demo of ultimate race).

I very nearly bought a dimond edge card (NV1). Wow, I'm so glad I talked myself out of that. That would have been the most expensive game I ever bought.

On topic.

I had to stop watching the ATI vid after a minute cause it was sooo damn embarrising. But after reading this thread, it seems it got better.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I had to join the forums just to say, this is exactly the reason I defected to the 3DFX camp. PVR1 ended up being the most expensive game demo I ever bought (single course demo of ultimate race).

Bingo. Exactly the same here.

I very nearly bought a dimond edge card (NV1). Wow, I'm so glad I talked myself out of that. That would have been the most expensive game I ever bought.

No, unfortunatly I fell for that one as well though! Still, VF was good, Panzer Dragoon was OK but I never really suceeded with getting very far.[/quote]

 

[DemoCoder]

I didn't get an NV1, I got a Sega Saturn instead.

Pretty much every 3D card before half-way thru the Voodoo1's life span was a "bundled game only" card. It wasn't like you could walk into Best Buy and pick up DirectX and OpenGL games off the shelf in 1995/96. If someone shipped a DX game in 96, changes are it didn't work on half the cards and was too buggy to play.

At best, you were lucky if you got a patch for a proprietary API. Otherwise, you sat around downloading tech demos, waiting for JC and Sweeney to release a dll for your card, or you got a coupon for a special OEM version of some game (like MechWarrior)

 

[DeanoC]

I didn't get an NV1, I got a Sega Saturn instead.

Pretty much every 3D card before half-way thru the Voodoo1's life span was a "bundled game only" card. It wasn't like you could walk into Best Buy and pick up DirectX and OpenGL games off the shelf in 1995/96. If someone shipped a DX game in 96, changes are it didn't work on half the cards and was too buggy to play.

At best, you were lucky if you got a patch for a proprietary API. Otherwise, you sat around downloading tech demos, waiting for JC and Sweeney to release a dll for your card, or you got a coupon for a special OEM version of some game (like MechWarrior)

JC was too busy working on a console to concern himself with PC's (how many people forgot that JC wrote that Jag version himself). Tim Sweeney was still only known for some 2D shareware games

My first was an ATI Rage 2 (my game/engine that got me in this business ran under hardware 3D on a Rage2 and software OpenGL. Every potential employer was amazed that I (a student) had managed to get 3D hardware acceleration, the first time it was ran on a Voodoo it worked (well the textures didn't appear but you could still play) ), with my first paycheck I brought a 3DFX Voodoo (Orchid Righteous with the loud relay when switching modes )

I then got to work on PC 3D games. A trauma I still haven't recovered from completely (i.e. demand absolute adherance to the spec etc, Never for any reason, should an IHV break spec!, I know what happens when IHV's start 'interpreting' API calls ). The only one that didn't completely suck was the 3DFX Voodoo, its been said many times but compared to the rest it was a godsend. The driver quality was at least several times better than the nearest competitor (i.e. you only found it doing its own thing once a week, and it crashed at most once a day ).

To sound like an old git, you 3D programmer's today don't know your've been born, in my day if the API actually did what you told it you would go celebrate down the pub

Edit:
I should note that I never used a native API until much later (it was Glide and was 6 months after shipping a D3D title).

 

[AzBat]

Here's a few facts that should help those interested in consumer 3D history.

The 3D Blaster VLB was based on a cost-reduced version of the GLint300SX called GiGi(Game Glint) shipped before the NV1-based Diamond Edge3D, but only by a couple of weeks. I remember since I was working for Creative Labs at the time. In fact that's what got me started in making my 3D accelerator site.

The 3DBlaster VLB could only run titles that came with it and a few titles that later released patches to support it. It did NOT support Direct3D since at the time Direct3D wasn't available.

Here's the titles that came with the 3DBlaster VLB:

* Flight Unlimited by Looking Glass
* HI-Octane by Bullfrog
* Magic Carpet by Bullfrog
* NASCAR Racing by Papyrus
* Rebel Moon by Fenris Wolf

Here's the titles that came with the Diamond Edge 3D:

* NASCAR Racing by Papyrus
* Panzer Dragoon by SEGA PC
* Virtua Fighter Remix by SEGA PC

I got these lists from an archived copy of my site.

Anyway, it wasn't till February 1996 that Direct3D was announced. That's when Microsoft also announced that the Rendition Verite was going to be the reference platform for Direct3D. Incidentally, Direct3D didn't ship till June 1996. I don't believe V1000-based boards showed up till Sep/Oct of 96. However, the chip was announced in Oct. 95 and Creative announced it was going to use it in Nov. 95.

Tommy McClain