What defines a terrorist?

DemoCoder said:
The difference is one of scale. Sure, if you add up the totals, in Algeria, or Ireland, or the Middle East, more people have died (over a long period), however, what terrorist group has killed thousands of people in a single attack?

In fact, even potential scale gains more attention. Aum Shinryko didn't kill very many people, but the Sarin attack, if they had done it better, had the potential to kill thousands, or more. Aum was also researching bio and nuclear and they had the technical know-how (far more than Al Qaeda) to pull it off, since Aum was made up of geek engineers. If any one could have carried out a large scale weaponized bio-attack, it would have been them, and what's more, they caught the Japanese completely by surprise, unlike Al Qaeda, which we have known about.

That makes Aum far more scary that the IRA.

Sure, don't get me wrong, I wasn't using the IRA example except to illustrate that 9/11 isn't "the biggest" on all accounts.

A 30 year campaign of terrorism has a scale of its own that numbers-killed-in-a-single attack doesn't though. They are different things. A long campaign changes your attitude to terrorism in a different way. Perhaps this is why I (as a Brit) have a different attitude to local terrorism to those of you from the US. I've grown up with a terrorist threat.

To me you have to take sensible precautions against terrorism. But getting totally paranoid and infringing your own freedoms to fight the terrorists means that they've won. The aim of the terrorists is to terrorise, and the people in the front-line are the civilian population. This means that a civilian popuation going about their business despite the threat is a strong signal to the terrorists that they aren't winning their war.

We tried all the special laws and treatment (internment, which was out equivalent of Guantanamo Bay), and they failed. Miserably. What wins is a strong sense of "No, we won't be cowed" by the civilian population.

I'll hush now, 'cos I'm ramblin' :)
 
RussSchultz said:
Perhaps political motivation is a major factor to being declared a terrorist or not?

No it is not a factor. I can be a terrorist becouse my mom brought me up that way.

RussSchultz said:
But when does a hate crime cross the political motivation boundary? If you're lynching black people to keep them from participating in society (voting, working, etc) is that a hate crime or terrorism?

the target is black people aka racism. This is a hate crime not a terrorist act. If i blow up a bank in a black neighborhood it is clear my target was black people, you would have to first investigate it and figure out what was my motivation. If i hate black people then it is a hate crime. If i hate american's it is a terrorist act.

RussSchultz said:
Does it matter if people are organized or are acting on their own?

no it does not

NOW after writing this i think i figured out something. I left my answers above even though i may have altered my second answer. In analyzing what we have said and what i've seen/heard in society.

Hate crimes effect a specific group BUT GENERALLY DOS not effect THE STOCK MARKET or the ECONOMY (same thing really)

A terrorist act will effect the stock market and the economy.

Thoughts?
 
DemoCoder said:
In fact, even potential scale gains more attention. Aum Shinryko didn't kill very many people, but the Sarin attack, if they had done it better, had the potential to kill thousands, or more. Aum was also researching bio and nuclear and they had the technical know-how (far more than Al Qaeda) to pull it off, since Aum was made up of geek engineers. If any one could have carried out a large scale weaponized bio-attack, it would have been them, and what's more, they caught the Japanese completely by surprise, unlike Al Qaeda, which we have known about.

That makes Aum far more scary that the IRA.

The Japanese knew about Aum. They just didn't take him or his organization seriously. They thought he was a crackpot.
 
DemoCoder said:
A terrorist is someone who aims to kill non-military to bring about political change, plain and simple. If Anti Abortionists, for example, were to start a campaign of blowing up clinics, killing doctors, etc, they would be terrorists, since they are attempting to bring political change by scaring people.

If environmentalist wacko groups sabotaged ski-resort lifts hoping to kill people and scare them away from "invading" mountains, they would be terrorists. (yes, it is a true story. On the west coast, one group sabotaged the cables of several lifts over the summer hoping to cause accidents which would scare people away and hurt the finances of the ski-tourism industry)

Anyone whose goal is to clandestinely kill and terrorize civilians to foment change is a terrorist. (yes, that even includes CIA operations in south america)

I think we have a winner. :D

However, you could tweak your definition from "Political Change" to simply an "Agenda." Religious attacks are not always necessarily done for political reasons, but to further a religious agenda.

Now if you want to say that any "agenda" is "politics" in the generic usage of the word, then so be it. But given our natural inclination of what politics is, it wouldn't fit the purpose for a religious agenda.
 
Lots of stuff at this site:
http://www.teror.gen.tr/english/whatisterrorism/index.html

THE DEFINITION OF TERROR
As the individual communication and mass media tools develop, the strategies and tactics of psychological war have developed in the same dimension, and have become a kind of art and science in highly complicated levels. From this point of view, the communication era we live in is also defined as the era of psychological wars.

As a result of the changing balances of the world and the differentiation in the international affairs, the method of cold wars have substituted for the hot wars. The psychological war which appears to be the requisite of the cold war, and the low intense conflicts as the unavoidable element of this have revealed the concept of terror.

Terrorism which is the element of the psychological war generally arises as a result of putting the invasive opinions and activities, which already exist or are artificially formed, in action on a specific purpose. Terrorism tends to display variation along with the improving and changing conditions in the world, and increases its effect and strength with the new facilities and capabilities obtained depending on the developing technology day by day.

The Characteristics of Terrorist Activities
The ones performing terror operations want to make great shocks, echoes, and panics on society through their activities. It is this purpose why they are carrying out hideously murderous activities. In addition, these traitors know well the difference of impact between the operations made on ordinary individuals or places, and on an important foundation or person who takes a leading role in society. They determine the targets in accordance with that. Terrorism is considered in the context of psychological impacts and political consequences, which it results in, rather than the number of deaths, and damages it causes. Indeed, terrorists have always achieved to draw attention of public on to their claims and themselves, and managed to form an atmosphere of fear and violence

The Purpose of Terrorist Activities
The aims of the terror organisations display differences depending on the countries they take action in and the groups they are directed by.

It is possible to explain the purpose of terrorism under the approaches known up today as building up a new government on the grounds of their ideologies annihilating the present regime and system by the way of using violence this approach is explained clearly in the cases of terror at courts.

The terror organisations assert that they aim to have a more peaceful and fair style of life in loyalty of the ideology they support, getting rid of the government and the leaders they regard as unjust and cruel.

For the sake of this, terrorists consider themselves as the society's unknown warriors and sacrificing volunteers whose activities have not been understood and appreciated yet. They suggest the idea that the unconscious public is unable to conceive of the good things which are done for them, and that's why, it is not possible for the public to join the action, yet as time goes on, people will become conscious and take part in organised activities. Until then, the conscious groups of people in minority should lead and carry out the struggle on behalf of public.

The aim of the terror, which is reflected in the society, seems to be subverting the political regime in the long run. Nevertheless, there should be some other aims in the short run. It is possible to summarise these short run targets in this fashion:

First of all, destruction of the regime and the politic system taken as targets and weakening the existing authority.

Letting the foreign public as well as the national public hear their claim and drawing their attentions on this.

Getting rid of the negative thoughts on their claim weakening the public's power of resistance with the help of intimidating people, and forcing the people accept their case.

Providing the support of people in masses and participants in the society they partially manage to apply force and authority.

The basic aims of the terror organisations at the first stage are to make doubts about the political system in the minds of people, and to weaken the moral authority of the government. As the result of this, the chaos resulted from these activities will make the leaders appear to be incapable and the people in masses will riot against the system, which those leaders represent. Briefly, the first target of the political terror in the short run is to paralyse the system and intimidate the public........
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
That is the disconnect that I saw when I started this thread that I'm trying to reconcile.

When you started this thread you saw "no difference" between Goldstein and "other cases" except that Goldstein was Jewish. Both MrShades and myself are BOTH saying "no, that's not the only difference."

We do differ on what the important difference is, but the point is, we both see the situations as different, MORE than just the fact that Goldstein in Jewish.

In any case...what's your definition of a "terrorist", Natoma? (At what point does someone go through normal legal channels, vs. "military" ones?)

If I had a definition of what a terrorist is, I wouldn't have started this thread now would I? ;)

But seriously, when I began the thread, I couldn't see a difference between Goldstein as a terrorist and Al-Qaeda. You were saying that Goldstein wasn't a terrorist because of one reason. MrShides for another reason.

I saw Goldstein as a terrorist given the definition of a terrorist as supplied by the government, and that's why I saw the disconnect.
 
Here's the FBI's definition of what a terrorist is:

FBI said:
The FBI views domestic terrorism as the unlawful use, or threatened use, of violence by a group or individual that is based and operating entirely within the United States or its territories without foreign direction and which is committed against persons or property with the intent of intimidating or coercing a government or its population in furtherance of political or social objectives.

<snip>

On the national level, formal right-wing hate groups, such as World Church of the Creator (WCOTC) and the Aryan Nations, represent a continuing terrorist threat. Although efforts have been made by some extremist groups to reduce openly racist rhetoric in order to appeal to a broader segment of the population and to focus increased attention on anti-government sentiment, racism-based hatred remains an integral component of these groups, core orientations.

<snip>

Right-wing extremists continue to represent a serious terrorist threat. Two of the seven planned acts of terrorism prevented in 1999 were potentially large-scale, high-casualty attacks being planned by organized right-wing extremists.

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm

It's a pretty good read. Now extending the FBI's definition seems pretty logical in terms of Robert Goldstein saying "I'm doing this against all Arabs and Muslims for the attacks on 9/11." I.e. it seems to be politically motivated revenge tactic in this "War on terrorism."

Since he is an individual and his potential act was racially/religiously motivated, and by all means he would be considered an extremist, I would think he would be considered a terrorist.

The fact that he had a list of 50 or more targets, and was going after Mosques shows that he was picking and choosing his targets with a political/religious motivation. And whether or not he said he was going after casualties, it seems to me that his civilian targets most certainly would have caused many many casualties.

So does this not fit the bill then?

p.s.: DC, your example of the eco-terrorists fits neatly into the FBI's "left wing extremist groups" definition:

FBI said:
Left-wing and Puerto Rican extremist groups. The second category of domestic terrorists, left-wing groups, generally profess a revolutionary socialist doctrine and view themselves as protectors of the people against the "dehumanizing effects" of capitalism and imperialism. They aim to bring about change in the United States through revolution rather than through the established political process.

Though they could also occupy the "special interest extremists" definition:

FBI said:
Special interest terrorism differs from traditional right-wing and left-wing terrorism in that extremist special interest groups seek to resolve specific issues, rather than effect more widespread political change. Special interest extremists continue to conduct acts of politically motivated violence to force segments of society, including, the general public, to change attitudes about issues considered important to their causes. These groups occupy the extreme fringes of animal rights, pro-life, environmental, anti-nuclear, and other political and social movements.
 
Its just not that easy

And for all the non Americans who bitch at us and say "keep your nose out of other people's business...." We have...until Qaeda made this our business. I thought that was obvious. So what's the issue here? We're butting in right now because we were directly attacked.

America has been in "other people's business" for quite a while.

Guatemala, Iraq, Afghanistan, Laos, Panama, ... I could go on and on and on and on.

Part of the reason why the Third world is in such disarray is directly caused by the CIA's "war on communism".

What do you think might become of the world in the aftermath of our "war on terrorism"?

Some of Al-Queda's main issues with us are our support for Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians, our military bases in Saudi Arabia and our "friendship" with the Saudi "government", our support for the authoritarian (non-democratic) regimes of the Middle East, the sanctions we (with the help of the UN) imposed upon the Iraqi people (i say that because you know damn well Saddam wasn't suffering from the sanctions). Again, i could go on and on, but this is just what Al-Queda doesn't like about Americans. We are not their only target, just their best media outlet. They hate "the West", not just Americans.

While I in no way support Al-Queda or their methods, i have a very hard time saying that they attacked us out of nowhere and without reason.

Israel has killed more Palestinians than Al-Queda has Americans by a seriously long shot. At times the Israeli-to-Palestinian death tolls were about 7 to 1 (in Israelis favor of course). The Palestinian people live in conditions on par with the Nazi camps in WW2 (i know this for a fact, i have been to Aushwitz and my wife has visited Palestinian Refugee camps in Gaza), and face daily intimidation from Israeli Police not unlike Jews and Homosexuals in Hitler's Europe.

Now the Palestinians reaction to all this is not okay either. But you need to stop and think that they have been under oppressive rule for longer even than Israel has been around. Prior to Israel coming in in '48, the British were there. When the first Israelis came to Palestine, the Palestinian people had been already beaten down and stripped of their weapons by the British.

These are the desperate acts of desperate people, who have lived under someone's thumb for several generations now. If all you ever knew was a refugee camp, what value would you place on life?

Why are you ranting about Israel and Palestine you ask?

Well because a little know fact is that the United States is the largest user/abuser of the UN Security Council Permanent Member Veto. In the last 30 years the US has vetoed approx. 70 resolutions calling for condemnation of the Israeli government. (France aint got nuttin on us baby).

Not to mention the fact that we regularly supply the Israeli army with all sorts of weapons and bulldozers. The same bulldozers that are used by religious extremists (and here i mean the Israeli settlers) to tear down the houses of terrorists (and here i mean old woman and children).

But wait,... Israel is not the only killer of Arabs we supply weapons to.

Saddam Hussein, you may have heard of him. The CIA was largely responsible for the installation of the Ba'ath party as the ruling regime in Iraq (this was all done because the current regime at the time was Communist). This is no conspiracy theory either, but a matter of public record.

Saddam, as George Bush is fond of telling us, gassed his own people. Over 100,000 Kurds and Shia Muslims was the number i heard. And funny thing about it, we sold him the gas (again not conspiracy but public record). Of course we sold it to him so he could win the Iran-Iraq war (because at the time we liked him better than Iran). The US government's involvement with Iraq and Saddam go way way back some 20-30 years, and is only recently turned adversarial.

Okay, now on to Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia's treatment of women makes what the Taliban did look like child's play. There are women in Saudi Arabia that have never (and i mean NEVER) left their homes, only ever seeing the outside through a window, and even then usually just seeing their own yards and not much else. It is not uncommon for a father to kill (usually by strangulation) his own daughter or wife if they do something that he deems wrong. The human rights violations committed daily in Saudi Arabia would make you sick to your stomach.

Their government is about as far away from Democracy as you could go, and regularly supports terrorism of all kinds.

Almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, which may come as surprise to the 44% of American, who when asked what country the hijackers came from said Iraq.

But yet Saudi Arabia is the US's closest ally in the region. We have several large military bases in the country and used positions in Saudi Arabia to launch many offensives into Iraq. The ties between American Corporations and the Saudis run very deep. Up to and including the current and former President Bush and the Bin Laden family.

Salem bin Laden, Osama?s older brother, was an investor in Arbusto Energy. (the Texas oil company started by George W. Bush). 

Bush the elder's current company, The Carlyle Group, counts the Bin Laden family as a major investor. So much so that on the morning of 9/11 George Sr. could have been found in the Ritz-Carlton in Washington D.C with representatives of the Bin Laden family. Don't believe me, here's the link - http://www.redherring.com/vc/2002/0111/947.html

What does this all have to do with the question "What defines a Terrorist?".

Well, the way i look at it, you can't.

Terrorism is just another label placed upon the "losers" by the "winners" and vice versa.

According to King George (of England not Bush), the American colonists would have been terrorists. Which would make our founding fathers (those guys who's faces are on our money) no better than Osama Bin Laden and Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

According to the U.S. Government of the 1800's, many of the Native American tribes would have been terrorists. Forget the fact that they were here first.

According to Hitler, all Jews were terrorists, and were conspiring against the good and peaceful German people. He accused them of fire bombing the Reichstag (the German equivalent of the Capitol building), and used that fact as a means to turn public opinion against them.

According to the British government at the time, Gahndi would have been a terrorist, despite his pacifism.

According to the Russian Czar Nicholas II, the Bolsheviks were terrorists. Despite the fact that hundreds of Russians starved to death while the Czar choose to remain oblivious to the concerns of the "lesser class".

The Aztecs and Mayans were certainly seen as Terrorists by the Conquistadors.

The Christians were seen as terrorists by the Romans.

Again, I can go on and on.

Never forget history is not an account of fact, but instead the point of view of the "winners" over the "losers".
 
:oops:

Uhm, lots to digest. hmm.. you sure had a lot to get off your chest didn't you stevan?

p.s.: He's a co-worker. :LOL:
 
Apologize for the long post.

Its been a few years since i really frequented any boards, so i guess i had some backup in the ole noodle.

p.s. - Natoma is lying,.. i have never meet him, and do not know who he is, and i would never be caught dead working with the likes of him. ;), ;)
 
Stvn said:
Apologize for the long post.

Its been a few years since i really frequented any boards, so i guess i had some backup in the ole noodle.

p.s. - Natoma is lying,.. i have never meet him, and do not know who he is, and i would never be caught dead working with the likes of him. ;), ;)

What have I unleashed... :oops:

I think I gave you a new hobby, or should I say, restarted an old one. :LOL:
 
Okay, now on to Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia's treatment of women makes what the Taliban did look like child's play. There are women in Saudi Arabia that have never (and i mean NEVER) left their homes, only ever seeing the outside through a window, and even then usually just seeing their own yards and not much else. It is not uncommon for a father to kill (usually by strangulation) his own daughter or wife if they do something that he deems wrong. The human rights violations committed daily in Saudi Arabia would make you sick to your stomach.

Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia?
I have (twice) and while I'm no expert the Taliban treated their women worse than Saudi Arabia. I have co-workers whom lived there for years, the company I work for (an am part owenr of) worked there for 11 years. Where do you get your information from?
 
I challenge you to provide proof, on the public record, by citing the record, that the US Government provided chemical weapons to Iraq. You message to me sounds like a typical consumer of so-called "indy"/"progressive" media, filled with lots of innuendo (like the Carlyle group reference. Umm, I own stock in several companies. Does that mean they have a personal relationship with me?)

I don't wanna hear about Iraq buying chemical precursors off the open market. Anyone can do that as long as there are no sanctions against them, and Iraq, with its primarily industries being agriculture and petroleum, will be a huge consumer of chemicals. The Aum cult had no problem getting them either. Did the US provide Aum with chemical weapns as well?


Why would the US need to supply weapons to Iraq (where are the their M1A1 tanks, M16s, and F15s?) when Iraq had a stupendously huge modern army supplied by the Soviet Union.

We know that the US supplied Saddam with satellite photos during the Iran-Iraq war, and we know they were granted agricultural loan guarantees, but I question the assertion that we "armed" Iraq. Iraq is a rich country, and can purchase its own weapons, and they did, from two of the biggest proliferators: The USSR and France.

Too much is explained by assigning the CIA to everything. Even today, in the Arab world, newspapers are claiming that Iraqi's aren't rioting and looting, but instead, it is activity organized by the CIA. I'm sure if you repeat this lie long enough, it will filter into the Chomskyite media and become truth and "a matter of public record"

Also, with regard to the Palestinians, you should also note that they were also oppressed and annexed by other Arabs. If anything, Jordan should also be giving land back to the Palestinians, for example. Jordan is essentially Palestine, with a huge number of resident Palestinians, but ruled by a non-Palestinian monarchy. And after the 1948 war, Israel took in jewish refugees from all over the world, but the rest of the Palestinian's so-called "Arab brothers" did nothing to help or absorb the refugees, but instead, put them into many of the camps they still reside in today.

Why Aren't arabs looking at their own hypocrisy with regard to the Palestinian question now? They never seemed to care for them until Arab governments found out that they could take attention off of their own internal problems and focus everything on the Palestinians.

In the US we would call this "wag the dog", but I'd call it "wag the camel". If you don't have popular support at home, find an external enemy and whip up anger against them.

I would ever go so far as to say that the middle eastern governments probably don't want a solution to the Palestinian question, because doing so would deprive them of their number one enemy, and perhaps Arab attention would turn away from Israel/Palestinian and towards their own problems.
 
Natoma wrote:
That's odd. I went through the site but they don't seem to classify religiously motivated acts as terrorism. Is that an oversight on their part or did I miss something?

Well they did list and describe terrorist organisations such as HAMAS and Hizbullah. I'm not sure that motivation is really a criteria for the definition of terrorism. After all, the way you wrote you said "religiously motivated acts...." Question: acts of what? Terrorism?
 
Well they did "go out of their way" to mention political terrorism, as well as economic terrorism. So I thought it odd that they didn't mention "religious" terrorism, for what it's worth.
 
Silent_One said:
Okay, now on to Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia's treatment of women makes what the Taliban did look like child's play. There are women in Saudi Arabia that have never (and i mean NEVER) left their homes, only ever seeing the outside through a window, and even then usually just seeing their own yards and not much else. It is not uncommon for a father to kill (usually by strangulation) his own daughter or wife if they do something that he deems wrong. The human rights violations committed daily in Saudi Arabia would make you sick to your stomach.

Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia?
I have (twice) and while I'm no expert the Taliban treated their women worse than Saudi Arabia. I have co-workers whom lived there for years, the company I work for (an am part owenr of) worked there for 11 years. Where do you get your information from?

First let me say that in no way do i think that everyone in Saudi Arabia does this. But as a society they are at times somewhat at odds with modern world. Certainly they may have gotten more progressive in recent years, but they are by no means spotless.

As far as the Saudi-Taliban thing, keep in mind how much longer Saudi Arabia has been controlled by the same ruling class, same laws, same customs; the Taliban were but a blip.

Many of these links are from Human Rights Watch. Here is how they describe themselves.

Human Rights Watch is an independent, nongovernmental organization, supported by contributions from private individuals and foundations worldwide. It accepts no government funds, directly or indirectly.

They are pretty respectable organization from what i know.

http://www.hrw.org/about/

---

http://docsmgmt.hrw.org/saudiarabia-pubs.php

look along the years on the side, each one links to at least one article

---

as recently as 1998 this is how Human Rights Watch described Saudi Arabia

The government of Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy, continued to violate a broad array of civil and political rights, allowing no criticism of the government, no political parties, nor any other potential challenges to its system of government. The use of arbitrary arrest and incommunicado detention, torture, and corporal and capital punishment was common in both political and common criminal cases, and the judicial system failed to provide the most basic fair trial guarantees.

Women faced institutionalized discrimination affecting their freedom of movement and association and their right to equality in employment and education.

http://www.hrw.org/worldreport/Mideast-08.htm#P975_166296

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Amnesty International is gravely concerned at reports that 14 girls have lost their lives and dozens of others were injured following a fire at their school in Mecca on 11 March 2002 after the religious police (Mutawa'een) prevented them from escaping from the fire because they were not wearing headscarves and their male relatives were not there to receive them.

The religious police are also reported to have prevented rescuers from entering the school because they were males and therefore not permitted to mix with females.

http://www.amnesty.org.au/women/news03.html

(I have a young daughter (6 years old) so this one is particularly disgusting to me)

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how Amnesty International of Canada describes Saudi Arabia

http://www.amnesty.ca/SaudiArabia/5.htm

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I did not read this book, but my wife did and we have discussed it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385475772/102-8822921-5517747?vi=glance

NOTE: After discussing this book with my wife (who is certainly much more knowledgable than i am about this topic) she believes the comment about fathers being allowed to kill daughters and wifes was something that happened in Iran and not Saudi Arabia, and usually only in cases of adultery (suspected only, no trial involved here), and not always fathers, but always a male member of the family. My apologizes for the incorrect information.

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To be fair, there is an indication that they have been improving, but they have recently been under more media & public scrutiny since 9/11. Hopefully this will continue.

Minister Nayef, on the other hand, welcomed the visit of human rights organizations to his country." We, at any time, welcome the visit of these organizations. Nothing prevents them for being acquainted on everything we do have in this regard.," he said.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/010416/2001041602.html

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And to answer your question. No, i have never been to Saudi Arabia.

I do not pretend to know everything about Saudi Arabia, so if you have any information that contradicts the information i have presented i would be very interested in reading/seeing it.

-stvn
 
DemoCoder said:
I challenge you to provide proof, on the public record, by citing the record, that the US Government provided chemical weapons to Iraq.

Here are a few related quotes and URLs. Unfortunately I do not have the time in my life to find the actual record. So it will have to be second hand evidence (with a healthy dose of innuendo).

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The documents show conclusively the U.S. knew as early as 1983 that Iraq was using chemical weapons against Iranian troops, and that Saddam was buying chemicals from American interests.

and later in the same page ...

The documents show that the U.S. not only protected Iraqi plans, it actually abetted them. American companies were allowed to sell chemical precursors to the Iraqis. Washington in the 1980s licensed dozens of other firms to ship biologicals to Iraq ? deadly viruses and toxins, the sort of stuff Washington is now demanding Iraq destroy.

It's known the U.S. provided satellite intelligence and advice to Iraq. But there have been recent reports, based on interviews with military advisers at the time, that American strategists actually helped with battle and strike plans that resulted in use of chemicals. That's difficult to confirm, though, as one of the first things the administration did after Sept. 11, 2001, was to greatly restrict access to the documents.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/iraq/issues_analysis/saddam_goodguy_030310.html

(and if you scroll down a bit, there is a great pic of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaking hands)

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http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm

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This one is by a Washington Post Staff Writer, i dont know if that helps any.

http://www.worldrevolution.org/projects/webguide/article.asp?ID=208

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The US provided less conventional military equipment than British or German companies but it did allow the export of biological agents, including anthrax; vital ingredients for chemical weapons; and cluster bombs sold by a CIA front organisation in Chile, the report says.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,866942,00.html

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That was only going 4 pages deep in a Google search. There is alot of this out in the media, mostly foreign media though, the story is not covered in the American media much, and really is not that unbelievable. Embarrassing, but not unbelievable.

You message to me sounds like a typical consumer of so-called "indy"/"progressive" media, filled with lots of innuendo

I dont deny that my leanings are towards the left. But I do not think of myself as a consumer of so-called "indy"/"progressive" media. It is one of many sources I read, and sometimes choose to believe. But i will always acknowledge the fact that it could all be a load of horse-shit. But i think the same way about all media. Who is to know what the truth really is, we are not there when these things happen, all evidence is circumstantial that the media we "consume" is the truth, its all innuendo in some way or another. << - (all apologies to the X-Files & the Matrix for that last sentence)

(like the Carlyle group reference. Umm, I own stock in several companies. Does that mean they have a personal relationship with me?)

Of course not. No offense, but i highly doubt you are on the same financial playing field with the Carlyle Group and the Bin Laden family.

I do admit to a definite anti-corporate slant as well, but I have reason for that. My father worked for the Department of Defense for 20 years investigating fraud, waste & abuse in government contracting. He spent his entire career investigating the same corporations that no doubt make up the Carlyle Groups "vast, interlocking, global network of businesses and investment professionals" (that is a quote from their own marketing (pulled from the Red Herring article of course, as i said, i dont have that much time on my hands)). There is alot more underhanded corporate greed and sliminess than just Enron, Worldcom and Tyco.

The Aum cult had no problem getting them either. Did the US provide Aum with chemical weapons as well?

That's just silly, of course not.

Why would the US need to supply weapons to Iraq (where are the their M1A1 tanks, M16s, and F15s?) when Iraq had a stupendously huge modern army supplied by the Soviet Union.

We know that the US supplied Saddam with satellite photos during the Iran-Iraq war, and we know they were granted agricultural loan guarantees, but I question the assertion that we "armed" Iraq. Iraq is a rich country, and can purchase its own weapons, and they did, from two of the biggest proliferators: The USSR and France.

No one said we paid for the weapons, of course we didn't. We simply paved the way and allowed the corporate interest to take over. And certainly no ones saying America has a monopoly on evil arms dealers in the world either.

Too much is explained by assigning the CIA to everything. Even today, in the Arab world, newspapers are claiming that Iraqi's aren't rioting and looting, but instead, it is activity organized by the CIA. I'm sure if you repeat this lie long enough, it will filter into the Chomskyite media and become truth and "a matter of public record"

Without getting to deep into this one,... The Freedom of Information Act is a major source of most of left-wing/PBS-esque media. That is "public record".

(side note: Cheney and Rumsfeld (who both got their start in the Ford Administration) pushed for Ford to veto the Freedom of Information Act when it was passed by Congress, Congress won out obviously. And yes, that was blatant innuendo, but by that i mean that in the end it is for you to decide what you think that fact implies, and if it implies anything at all.)

Also, with regard to the Palestinians, you should also note that they were also oppressed and annexed by other Arabs. If anything, Jordan should also be giving land back to the Palestinians, for example. Jordan is essentially Palestine, with a huge number of resident Palestinians, but ruled by a non-Palestinian monarchy. And after the 1948 war, Israel took in jewish refugees from all over the world, but the rest of the Palestinian's so-called "Arab brothers" did nothing to help or absorb the refugees, but instead, put them into many of the camps they still reside in today.

Why Aren't arabs looking at their own hypocrisy with regard to the Palestinian question now? They never seemed to care for them until Arab governments found out that they could take attention off of their own internal problems and focus everything on the Palestinians.

In the US we would call this "wag the dog", but I'd call it "wag the camel". If you don't have popular support at home, find an external enemy and whip up anger against them.

For sure the Palestinians have been stepped on by more than just the Israelis. I agree that the other Arab countries in the region are not without blame as well. And many of these same countries ritualistically make use of the Palestinian cause (through state run media and state-sponsored religious groups) for their own political purposes, I agree with you again.

I would ever go so far as to say that the middle eastern governments probably don't want a solution to the Palestinian question, because doing so would deprive them of their number one enemy, and perhaps Arab attention would turn away from Israel/Palestinian and towards their own problems.

This too is what makes them so nervous about the War in/on Iraq. The BBC regularly has the translated headlines from many arab newspapers, it makes for an interesting read.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2945925.stm


-stvn
 
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