Was the war in Iraq worth the costs?

[Legion]

Legion:

I'll try to keep this short. I never wrote that most Iraqis aren't happy that Saddam is gone.

What you wrote was they didn't want democracy because they didn't fight for it.

I asked you how you came to this knowledge. You have yet to provide me a evidence for your reasoning.

What I did write is that we were clearly lied to about the justifications for attacking Iraq in the first place,

There were numerous justifications. The only one we hear about is the one leftists are most qualified to rail against.

As for democracy in the middle east, paint me highly, highly skeptical. Especially one forced upon them.

How is it "forced" on them? Should we just leave them in anarchy? Perhaps we should leave them under the control of another dictator? I think democracy is the best option for them now. IF they so wish to modify it they ought to be allowed.

In fact, I'll predict a very grim future for Iraq if we pull out this June, because I honestly think without direct US/UN troop intervention, the Shiites, Suunis, and Kurds are going to rather quickly find themselves embroiled in a ugly civil war. I certainly hope I'm wrong, but time will tell.

If so i am still left to say removing saddam was a positive choice.

 

[RussSchultz]

What I did write is that we were clearly lied to about the justifications for attacking Iraq in the first place...In fact, I'll predict a very grim future for Iraq if we pull out this June...

1) There is zero evidence we were lied to. There is complete admission that the intelligence seems to have been wrong, but there's nothing to suggest that Bush also lied to the Germans, French, Russians, and the UN who all came up to the same conclusion that Iraq had not declared their weapons and were hiding things.
2) Again, whats with the insinuations and predictions that we're pulling our troops out in June? The only time we'll pull our troops out in the near future is if Kucinich gets elected, and I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[Legion]

I'm talking about things like how they should handle their religion. Should we force them to not abide by Islam because some interpret it in a way that forces women to hide their bodies because otherwise they distract males. Just 'simple' things like that, really.

I don't think we will force them to do anything wrt this topic. Its far to much of a powder keg.

Yes, and it will be interesting to see just how free this democracy will be.

I detect a hint of sarcasm.

Edit: Will it be just as free as this:

http://www.davidgrenier.com/securitybill.pdf

At the end of the first page through the second - a maximum of 10 years in prison for advocating anarchy. Nice.

I see very positive reasons to discourage anarchy.

 

[StefanS]

So, because they didn't put up a fight, you assume they'd rather live under tyranny then under a free democracy? Did many of the Jews who died in the Holocaust die because they wanted to? They didn't put up a fight in many cases.

This might be a little bit OT:
As a matter of fact a lot of Jews did fight the Nazis in every way they could. Jews were very active in the Resistance, especially in MOI. They destabilzed the Nazi's rule over Paris.
Moreover, they did join the troops as well (they fought in the war for france under the regular French army, they joined British and American forces, if they had the chance to...)

 

[Legion]

This might be a little bit OT:
As a matter of fact a lot of Jews did fight the Nazis in every way they could.

I am sure "a lot" of jews did (especially in Poland). However i am likewise sure "a lot" of jews didn't. Does this mean those jews who didn't wanted what had come to them? Of course not. Saying such would be as patently absurd a generalization as stating everyone living under communism, who isn't fighting against it, must want it.

Jews were very active in the Resistance, especially in MOI. They destabilzed the Nazi's rule over Paris.
Moreover, they did join the troops as well (they fought in the war for france under the regular French army, they joined British and American forces, if they had the chance to...)

And then there were those who just allowed themselves to be killed, why? Did they want to?

I appreciate your contribution but it fails to address the point i was making.

 

[StefanS]

I appreciate your contribution but it fails to address the point i was making.

As I said it was meant as an OT remark; I didn't intend to comment on any point you made.
I just said that there were a lot of Jews who, had they been given the chance to fight, did fight.
Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Legion]

As I said it was meant as an OT remark; I didn't intend to comment on any point you made.
I just said that there were a lot of Jews who, had they been given the chance to fight, did fight.
Nothing more and nothing less.

Would you state those who died wanted to? Likewise anyone else living under a tyrannical regime who doesn't fight back wants to?

 

[StefanS]

As I said it was meant as an OT remark; I didn't intend to comment on any point you made.
I just said that there were a lot of Jews who, had they been given the chance to fight, did fight.
Nothing more and nothing less.

Would you state those who died wanted to? Likewise anyone else living under a tyrannical regime who doesn't fight back wants to?

Where the hell did I say that? Quit putting words in my mouth... Please read again what I wrote because you're misinterpretating every single word I said.

 

[Legion]

Where the hell did I say that? Quit putting words in my mouth... Please read again what I wrote because you're misinterpretating every single word I said.

I keep looking and looking at my last post and all i see are two rather harmless questions.

 

[John Reynolds]

What you wrote was they didn't want democracy because they didn't fight for it.

I asked you how you came to this knowledge. You have yet to provide me a evidence for your reasoning.

It's simple human nature: if you want something badly enough, you'll get it one way or another. I just simply believe that you cannot invade a nation, create a form of government that's completely foreign to the conquered nation's culture and history, and expect it to work. IMO, it's supremely naive.

There were numerous justifications. The only one we hear about is the one leftists are most qualified to rail against.

Nice assumption I'm a leftie (for the record, I hate affirmative action, welfare on the scale we see here in the US, and I'm for the death penalty), but I can broaden my scope. Where's the evidence of Saddam directly supporting Al Qaeda? I've never seen a picture of him the same room as Bin Laden, but I have seen a picture of him shaking Rumsfield's hand. How did our secular counterpoint to the Iranian extremists suddenly become, post 9/11, an ally of Islamic fundamentalists? Honestly, for all the billions spent I think Bush is losing his little war on terror.

How is it "forced" on them? Should we just leave them in anarchy? Perhaps we should leave them under the control of another dictator? I think democracy is the best option for them now. IF they so wish to modify it they ought to be allowed.

Should we leave them? No, absolutely not. Once we made the decision, right or wrong, to invade, we are responsible for that country's future. Whether or not we shirk that responsibility remains to be seen. Personally, and considering we have a nice history of creating absolute messes in other countries and then walking away, I'm not going to hold my breath for too long.

If so i am still left to say removing saddam was a positive choice.

That Saddam is out of power is a good thing. But if we want to topple dictators who we think have WMD and we think have terrorist links, and we know are cruel despots, shouldn't we instead choose the ones we know have WMD and links to terrorist organizations.

 

[StefanS]

Where the hell did I say that? Quit putting words in my mouth... Please read again what I wrote because you're misinterpretating every single word I said.

I keep looking and looking at my last post and all i see are two rather harmless questions.

I am agreeing with you on those questions. Really. Now on with the discussion...

 

[John Reynolds]

That's the one thing that really startles me. It seems like Bush gets off the hook by claiming that the relied on bad intelligence. Is the US mainstream media stupid or something? They seem to have forgotten that the OSP was formed for the very reason of twisting sound intelligence into something that can be used to support the war.

Yeah, the US administration relied on bad intelligence... bad intelligence they had fabricated themselves. I remember reading an article a few months ago that described the OSP as staffed by "ideological amateurs".

Edit:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html

US mainstream media isn't stupid, it's just lost the ability to conduct true investigative journalism because it's now a for-profit market. Ivestigations take people and time and resources, and that costs money.

 

[Sazar]

I suggest those who have not been to the holocaust museum in D.C. do so... you will get a grim picture of the environment around the time (about a decade span) and what occured... who helped... who didn't... what underground resistances were about and the conditions and what not of the people... it will give you a good idea of what took place...

keep in mind that while the nazi's are generally portrayed as the main culprit... there are quite a few other nations who helped in one way or another with the whole issue...

back OT... saddam's removal was never questioned... a fraction of people in the international community wanted him still in power...

however you have the whole deal with why we went in there and what we have done since...

I have still yet to see in the almost 1 year we have been there a setup of economy that allows more iraqi's to participate and therefore reduces tensions (joblessness is never pleasant)

farther... I have yet to see anything come about from the alleged halliburton probe and what has happened to the various plants et al they were supposed to have fixed...

pwer sharing is going to be a massive issue due to the history of the nation and I think it is highly unfortunate that the US administration continues to push exiled candidates who have not been in iraq for a long time ahead of multiple substitutes...

the UN's role needs to be expanded as well...

 

[Legion]

US mainstream media isn't stupid, it's just lost the ability to conduct true investigative journalism because it's now a for-profit market. Ivestigations take people and time and resources, and that costs money.

Oddly, i find myself concuring with your opinion. Hense the reason i detest europeans among others shaping their opinions of the US by what they see on US News broadcasts and on television.

 

[John Reynolds]

Oddly, i find myself concuring with your opinion. Hense the reason i detest europeans among others shaping their opinions of the US by what they see on US News broadcasts and on television.

Don't let it happen again.

 

[Legion]

Oddly, i find myself concuring with your opinion. Hense the reason i detest europeans among others shaping their opinions of the US by what they see on US News broadcasts and on television.

Don't let it happen again.

It certianly gets me thinking about all those europeans who must think the US culture to be juvenile after watching US news broadcasts. These same individuals always seem to be the ones stating "americans are so foolish for believing everything they see in their media."

yep, thats right, we are all sex fearing prudes just like tv tells me...

 

[John Reynolds]

It certianly gets me thinking about all those europeans who must think the US culture to be juvenile after watching US news broadcasts. These same individuals always seem to be the ones stating "americans are so foolish for believing everything they see in their media."

To the contrary, I think it's what's not mentioned in US news broadcasts that has them shaking their heads.

 

[Legion]

To the contrary, I think it's what's not mentioned in US news broadcasts that has them shaking their heads.

likewise what has us shaking our heads?

 

[John Reynolds]

likewise what has us shaking our heads?

A breast bared for 1 second.

 

[Legion]

likewise what has us shaking our heads?

A breast bared for 1 second.

And our nation was in an uproar about this? Strange, i didn't notice anyone who cared...maybe this is just an example of what i was refering to

-btw my comment was meant to saw Perhaps what is lacking in their media has us shaking our heads.