Warren Spector critizes Rockstar with GTA Series

[Blade]

Y'know, I can't help but agree with WS again in his clarification.

Remember, this is coming from a guy whose favorite genre is arguably the FPS! (me, not.. well, him too I guess)

There's a stigma among the mainstream gaming crowd (largely teenagers) that suggests colorful, dare I say cutesy games don't have a place because they're for children. Gamers that disregard Nintendo, for instance, claiming that they'll only buy a GameCube so "my baby daughter will have a console to play".. these people.

They're not just for children, largely. Certainly not the ones from Nintendo, Sega, Capcom, Rare, Sony.. those who innovate with quality software.. exciting the gamer in all of us. While using a more cartoony art style, no less.. and while aiming for a broad demographic. They deserve respect.

The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker doesn't deserve some little jerk at GameStop telling me that it's a kids' game. Kameo: Elements of Power doesn't deserve to be written off because it's got all of the colors of the rainbow and not a whole lot of controversy.

Developers can make whatever games they want, but I agree that Rockstar has shown limited scope by making themselves a one-trick pony of violence and sex. What do I say? Keep making great games like GTA:SA, but remember the magic of Space Station Silicon Valley and for crying out loud.. let the kids play your games for once. Generate appeal in more than one market, and if you're going to make adult games.. don't make them all about illegal activities. It's immature and over time has gotten annoying, especially since most of Rockstar's non-GTA titles have been mediocre cash-ins on the idea. Manhunt, anyone? State of Emergency was published under the Rockstar label.

BTW, The Incredibles was great IMHO. Almost as good as Finding Nemo.. although, maybe I have more of a fondness towards it because of all of the comic book references tossed in. i.e. How they passed the "Keane Act" to shut down the heroes for no reason. Of course, the villains were shut down too..

 

[Gubbi]

But picking on Rockstar is just so lame.

They are being singled out because they produced a hugely succesful game, that then got copied again and again. Blame the copy cats and not the original inventors.

And Blade, calling them one trick ponys is also really lame. GTA and GTA 2 weren't that hot (2D scrollers have limited appeal), but when then they hit the big time with GTA 3 they should suddenly abbandon their franchise? That would be like asking Nintendo to abandon Mario.

So Spector singling out Rockstar is lame lame l.a.m.e.

Cheers

 

[London Geezer]

People always have to victimise and pick on one single person (or company) doing what many other people are doing.

Look at the whole Kate Moss "scandal"... It's ridiculous to think that probably all the so-called "journalists" ruining her life went to parties that weekend and took vast amounts of coke themselves, if not other kinds of "recreational drugs" one can do quite freely in London. Everyone does it, but it's "big news" when everyone teams up to take down the designated scapegoat and target sales for the "good" middle class.

Hypocrisy at its best.

 

[Powderkeg]

But picking on Rockstar is just so lame.

They are being singled out because they produced a hugely succesful game, that then got copied again and again.

Did you even read what he said? Any of it?

He singled out Rockstar because they made a great game but it's content wasn't suitable for showing off that greatness to non-gamers.



That's all he said, and it's not worth getting your blood pressure raised over.

 

[Platon]

But picking on Rockstar is just so lame.

They are being singled out because they produced a hugely succesful game, that then got copied again and again. Blame the copy cats and not the original inventors.

And Blade, calling them one trick ponys is also really lame. GTA and GTA 2 weren't that hot (2D scrollers have limited appeal), but when then they hit the big time with GTA 3 they should suddenly abbandon their franchise? That would be like asking Nintendo to abandon Mario.

So Spector singling out Rockstar is lame lame l.a.m.e.

Cheers

Well, being the most most successfull franchise around makes that to you and well they were the first ones to start this trend. But still I would say he is using them as an example to critisize the industry as a whole, and it s quite easy to understand why they are the best example around...

 

[cam]

I don’t think Specter understands that GTA doesn’t force you to mow people down or commit mass murders, it just allows the player the freedom to do so, and coming from someone who’s last two games contained many toys to commit such acts of violence is pretty rich, sure you didn’t have too kill, but it gave players the same freedom to do so GTA did

His rant is almost as bad as people blaming doom after certain school shootings, it’s a single narrow vision that ignores everything else around it, instead of moaning about a hugely selling game, maybe try singling out some developers for praise, that are trying to advance the genre like ico and maybe generate some sales and interest.

 

[Gubbi]

Did you even read what he said? Any of it?

He singled out Rockstar because they made a great game but it's content wasn't suitable for showing off that greatness to non-gamers.

That's all he said, and it's not worth getting your blood pressure raised over.

I'm calm, I'm calm.

He toned it down a bit, but he still said:

You don't think the GTA team could rock hard on something that didn't involve criminal behavior? Wouldn't you love to see them try?....
<snip>

To which I said no. It's like loving to see Tarantino make a Muppet movie.

Cheers

 

[Powderkeg]

To which I said no. It's like loving to see Tarantino make a Muppet movie.

Cheers

I disagree. You can have something that isn't over-the-top criminal and yet still be compelling and adult in nature.

 

[Fox5]

I'm calm, I'm calm.

He toned it down a bit, but he still said:

To which I said no. It's like loving to see Tarantino make a Muppet movie.

Cheers

I already pointed out that the GTA team made two non-gangster games in the GTA 3d mold, Body Harvest and Space Station Silicon Valley.
They bombed, whereas the GTA games have been some of the best selling games of all times, and opened gaming up to a much larger audience.

 

[Blade]

You can have something that isn't over-the-top criminal and yet still be compelling and adult in nature.

Exactly. I wouldn't go as far to say as Rockstar should produce such a game, but y'know.. I think they will. Eventually.

I already pointed out that the GTA team made two non-gangster games in the GTA 3d mold, Body Harvest and Space Station Silicon Valley.

DMA/Rockstar have made plenty of games and nobody's faulting them.

I recall BH and SSSV being on the N64, though. N64 = mucho success for 3rd-parties. *rolls eyes*

They bombed

Content-wise or sales-wise? See above line about "mucho success."

whereas the GTA games have been some of the best selling games of all time

From a marketing standpoint, it makes sense. It just hurts me inside that equally good or better games achieve a tiny fraction of the sales (and thus don't get sequelled) because "YO THIS GAME GOT HOOKERS AND YOU CAN RUN OVAR PEEPS WITH A BUS AND SHOOT UP SOME HAITIANS WHO SAY THE F WORD"..

and opened gaming up to a much larger audience.

See above. I hope that this "much larger audience" of yours can wrap their head around games without the elements of GTA. I know a lot of friends that play just GTA, and these are the people you're referring to. Not many of them got more than halfway through VC or SA's missions, though. That says something.

I guess some of us are having that "veteran" feeling. Like, the "I've been gaming since the 80's and I've enjoyed countless experiences in almost every genre and only now do you folks finally appreciate my hobby because you can steal cars and buy strip clubs in it"...

I mean, it's not like GTA:VC was the first game ever to have high production value and professional voice acting to bring in this bigger audience..

Anybody get that vibe?

 

[mckmas8808]

See above. I hope that this "much larger audience" of yours can wrap their head around games without the elements of GTA. I know a lot of friends that play just GTA, and these are the people you're referring to. Not many of them got more than halfway through VC or SA's missions, though. That says something.

Well that's not R*'s fault. It's good actually that some people are playing the game that whom wouldn't play games or buy videogames systems.

 

[London Geezer]

Well that's not R*'s fault. It's good actually that some people are playing the game that whom wouldn't play games or buy videogames systems.

@ "that whom"

The GTA series sold a lot because they appealed to an adult audience, sure, but let's not forget that its audience was probably mostly made by teenagers who shouldn't even be playing the game due to age restrictions.

 

[mckmas8808]

The GTA series sold a lot because they appealed to an adult audience, sure, but let's not forget that its audience was probably mostly made by teenagers who shouldn't even be playing the game due to age restrictions.

Again not Rockstars fault. I'm pretty sure that the Matrix had a thick audience of people that were under the age a 17 too. Point being if the parents buy it for the kids that's something R* can't change.

 

[Blade]

I don't want Rockstar to change it. I was just replying to the comment about "a larger audience" and why GTA is successful.

The gameplay is pretty good, the amount of content is great. On these merits alone, every GTA game should be a million-seller.

Of course, we know that's not why it's sold so well and has gotten so much mainstream press. (most of it bad press)

 

[.Melchiah.]

Don't know the above game, but from the title alone I'd love to see a Leather Goddesses of Phobos "with enough detail to leave no space to the imagination" next gen

Cheers

That was actually a game based purely on text and audio (the same applies to Lurking Horror).

Leather Goddesses of Phobos came also with few bags which you were supposed to open in certain sections of the game. For example, you are in a sewer area, open the bag and voilá, it also smells like sewer!

 

[Powderkeg]

How about an 'I, Robot' (Book, not the crappy movie) based game using GTA's basic gameplay.

 

[Blade]

Leather Goddesses of Phobos came also with few bags which you were supposed to open in certain sections of the game. For example, you are in a sewer area, open the bag and voilá, it also smells like sewer!

Decades ahead of its time. (not)

 

[Inane_Dork]

I'm not confusing anything at all. I picked a harmless family movie, and a box office hit at that, and compared to another box office hit.

Again, you miss the point. It's not about popularity, it's about quality. You can push the artform without pushing the rating system. Honey, I Shrunk the Kids does not really push the artform.

Or, maybe, consider Napoleon Dynamite. Not all like it, but it makes its own way without lots of swearing and off color jokes.

But to play your game: would you rather have Tarantino instruct "The Muppet Movie 2" or "the Vega Brothers" ?

You miss the point yet again. It's not which I would rather him do, but wouldn't I like to see what a Tarantino directed The Muppet Movie 2 would be. And the answer is yes, I would like to see that. Which movie I'd rather him do is another question.

Ok, we're never going to agree. The Incredibles was a boring, predictable and very well animated movie, the best thing about going to the theater to watch it was the short film shown first with the singing+dancing sheep.

Whereas Sin City was totally uncompromising in it's grit. Loving both Rodriguez and Frank Miller I had very high expectations going in to see this movie, and I wasn't disapointed.

We're never going to agree because you don't like my example? Please, you're smarter than that.

So Spector singling out Rockstar is lame lame l.a.m.e.

Spector singled them out because their popularity makes a better reference in a speech and because they do show great game design, unlike the knock-offs. Why would he single out True Crime? That game has major issues just trying to be what it should, let alone changing what it should be. No, GTA is the only series that makes any sense to use as an example.

And I'm pretty sure people are not asking Rockstar to dump GTA. They're asking for a tangent, a parallel to GTA.

 

[Fox5]

Again, you miss the point. It's not about popularity, it's about quality. You can push the artform without pushing the rating system. Honey, I Shrunk the Kids does not really push the artform.

Or, maybe, consider Napoleon Dynamite. Not all like it, but it makes its own way without lots of swearing and off color jokes.

You miss the point yet again. It's not which I would rather him do, but wouldn't I like to see what a Tarantino directed The Muppet Movie 2 would be. And the answer is yes, I would like to see that. Which movie I'd rather him do is another question.

We're never going to agree because you don't like my example? Please, you're smarter than that.

Spector singled them out because their popularity makes a better reference in a speech and because they do show great game design, unlike the knock-offs. Why would he single out True Crime? That game has major issues just trying to be what it should, let alone changing what it should be. No, GTA is the only series that makes any sense to use as an example.

And I'm pretty sure people are not asking Rockstar to dump GTA. They're asking for a tangent, a parallel to GTA.

Tangents are parallel now?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Tangents are parallel now?

Sure, in nth dimensional space