Vita 2 / PS4 Go?

[Deleted member 13524]

Why couldn't any other device compete with Switch? What is it about Switch that means it has the portable market all to itself? I'm not arguing Sony could make a successful portable, but I don't see what it is about the Switch that makes its position unassailable. It's another gaming platform.

I should have been more clear on that sentence.

Technically, there's nothing stopping Sony from developing a successful competition to the Switch.
Realistically, Sony left the Vita to die as soon as it released (probably due to the "sudden" rise in smartphones in tablets), whereas Nintendo kept pressing on the 3DS despite lackluster beginnings.

Sony decided a long ago that their focus would be on their home consoles. They showed exactly that when back in 2011 they chose to keep pumping new 1st-party AAA franchises for their aged PS3 while ignoring their brand new handheld.

What if Apple released a Switch-like iThing? A phablet with a dock as described here for PS4P, maybe?

How much interest has apple shown in gaming during the last two decades?
Gaming is too uncool for apple's branding direction.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I should have been more clear on that sentence.

Technically, there's nothing stopping Sony from developing a successful competition to the Switch.
Realistically, Sony left the Vita to die as soon as it released (probably due to the "sudden" rise in smartphones in tablets), whereas Nintendo kept pressing on the 3DS despite lackluster beginnings.

Sony decided a long ago that their focus would be on their home consoles. They showed exactly that when back in 2011 they chose to keep pumping new 1st-party AAA franchises for their aged PS3 while ignoring their brand new handheld.

That doesn't immediately mean they'd do the same with another portable. A Sony portable, cool and well marketed, maybe with Android support, backed with software, probably has as much chance in the current landscape as anything else.

How much interest has apple shown in gaming during the last two decades? Gaming is too uncool for apple's branding direction.

The question was just hypothetical to consider a mammoth challenge to Nintendo, to illustrate Nintendo aren't intrinsically the only player in the portable space. Gaming was also not of interest to Apple with their iThings, but it's the predominant use of the devices. If they had business nonce, and considering their traditional market is dwindling, they'd consider alternative products to reach different market segments that aren't already saturated. Switch may well prove the value of portable<>TV connectivity. *shrug*

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

What's cheap + low-powered + high quality?

It would go directly against the Switch. At best it would be blasted by the Switch, at worse it would be blasted by tablets and smartphones.

I mean in the sense of making it as cheap as possible, with the lowest specs necessary for VR, whilst still being an upgrade over the Vita, and being of decent build quality.

It would be lower powered than the Switch, but could be cheaper, with the USP of being a VR headset and a DualShock 4. As for tablets and smartphones, that's competition that any portable will face, and against which the Switch has done very well, in spite of its price.

I essentially propose an iteration on the PSVita, with its input changed to DualShock 4, and a screen of a higher resolution and refresh rate.

Ensure that all of its games can be played on the PS4, release it for double the price of the DualShock 4, and I think you've got a serous competitor to the Switch, and a worthy addition to the PlayStation ecosystem.

As for smartphones and tablets, a capable web browser is the simplest way of combating the vast app libraries of iOS and Android. Other than that, I'm not sure there's much you can do. Everyone I know who owns a tablet, owns one because it's a cheap PC; gaming's just a bonus. With console owners, the opposite's true: PC features are a bonus.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

If they had business nonce...

lol I'm not sure he would help...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I mean in the sense of making it as cheap as possible, with the lowest specs necessary for VR, whilst still being an upgrade over the Vita, and being of decent build quality.

Standalone VR, or as a VR headset for a console? Either way, it's not ideal. For standalone VR a portable will never be powerful enough. For a VR display, it'll add a lot of unnecessary weight to the front of the headset. Unless they did something awesome like have a detachable screen and leave the battery and other gubbins off the back, which would come with its own problems.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

That doesn't immediately mean they'd do the same with another portable. A Sony portable, cool and well marketed, maybe with Android support, backed with software, probably has as much chance in the current landscape as anything else.

But take away the Android support and what you have is a Vita. And Sony already stated they wouldn't launch a successor to the Vita.
Much of their platform momentum comes from the 1st-party exclusives, and those just sell better on home consoles than handhelds.

That's why I think a handheld PS4 would be spectacular. Take your dominating platform and make it portable. Who wouldn't want this?

The question was just hypothetical to consider a mammoth challenge to Nintendo, to illustrate Nintendo aren't intrinsically the only player in the portable space.

I think the challenge will either come from Sony/Microsoft, or from windows handhelds using Raven Ridge SoCs.
I'm thinking Steam getting together with e.g. Asus, MSI and Gigabyte to produce Raven Ridge-based handhelds with a format similar to the SMACH Z and GPD WIN.

SMACH Z seemed promising, but they're way past their initially predicted April 2017 shipments to backers. And although they have been releasing monthly updates, they can only be seen by backers who under NDA.
Delivery for backers has been delayed to September of this year, but who knows...

I mean in the sense of making it as cheap as possible, with the lowest specs necessary for VR, whilst still being an upgrade over the Vita, and being of decent build quality.

It would be lower powered than the Switch, but could be cheaper, with the USP of being a VR headset and a DualShock 4. As for tablets and smartphones, that's competition that any portable will face, and against which the Switch has done very well, in spite of its price.

You're asking for a cheap handheld that is even less powerful than the Switch but at the same time it's powerful enough for VR.
Those are mutually exclusive.

 

[3dilettante]

AMD claimed the Fury X's HBM 1 had a >35GB/s per Watt.
This means at 512GB/s, Fury X's four stacks had a combined power consumption of 15W. That's 3.75W per stack.
HBM low-cost will probably reduce the power consumption per stack. At least for the difference in manufacturing process (28nm -> 16FF at least), it might consume 2x less. Especially if it's running at less than the 3Gbps required to reach 200GB/s.

DRAM doesn't have the same transitions or node designations as logic, and at least modern DRAM already uses a large FinFET transistor for the control gate.
http://semiengineering.com/1xnm-dram-challenges/

The HBM memory types drop IO power enough that the DRAM row and column access power dominate, per Nvidia's presentation on DRAM power scaling. HBM2 reduces row access power relative to HBM, which may be due to the pseudo-channel mode.
The low-cost HBM type might raise IO power relative to the array access cost, but if it's not massive leap then power consumption will fall in line with how much the arrays are accessed--which would be proportionate to the bandwidth and whatever process is available for the arrays at the time.

The array access power cost is something that could be applied to multiple DRAM types, as much of the difference in that space is about how similar arrays are accessed. In that regard, the narrower up-clocked cheap version of HBM may lose power-wise at the same bandwidth with more expensive but wider HBM2(3?) once the same process and array advances are applied to both.

 

[arijoytunir]

How about a standalone playstation vr system instead of a handheld like the new occulus santa clara prototype? I mean whats the point in another vita

 

[HBRU]

VR has quite a lot of problems to become a mass selling device... Ps4-go, if realized, if easly compatible with existent software, is a sure win...

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Standalone VR, or as a VR headset for a console? Either way, it's not ideal. For standalone VR a portable will never be powerful enough. For a VR display, it'll add a lot of unnecessary weight to the front of the headset. Unless they did something awesome like have a detachable screen and leave the battery and other gubbins off the back, which would come with its own problems.

I mean as a headset for a console. I've not worn any, so I'm unaware of the weight distribution of any headset. That said, I know of a few people who use their phone for VR content and I've never heard any complaints.

Should weight be an issue, I think you're basically on the money with your solution. The HTC Sensation could be removed from its case, and the battery could then be removed from the main body - this left all processing hardware and the screen.

On the topic of standalone VR though, I thought there were some VR games on smartphones? Nothing big or high fidelity, but something. I'll Google around in a bit.

 

[Prophecy2k]

But take away the Android support and what you have is a Vita. And Sony already stated they wouldn't launch a successor to the Vita.
Much of their platform momentum comes from the 1st-party exclusives, and those just sell better on home consoles than handhelds.

That's why I think a handheld PS4 would be spectacular. Take your dominating platform and make it portable. Who wouldn't want this?

I think Sony's problem with Vita (especially in comparison to Nintendo) was always providing enough compelling first party portable software, as opposed to the sales of the stuff they did make. Where Nintendo has dedicated studios making portable focused IPs (e.g. Game Freak and Pokemon), Sony tried to get their traditionally home console-focused devs to push out portable games as effective side projects. Few were really that compelling. At the same time, however, many of the successful portable games were third party Japanese developed, and tended to release exclusively on Nintendo's platforms.

PSP managed to garner a relatively significant amount of Japanese dev support, together with some noteworthy western support. With Vita, it seemed as if Sony tried to focus too much on western dev support and lost a lot of Japanese dev support, with many of the big key Japanese games like MonHun exclusive to the 3DS (when the PSP had enjoyed releases in this series). Japanese games tend to be more suited to portables in general, so I feel that this was Sony's main flaw with the Vita.

On the other hand, the PS4 is getting significant Japanese game support. And so a portable PS4 would be a compelling offering straight outta the gate; with both traditionally portable-friendly Japanese games already available, as well as the ability to play big AAA western games on the go (something it seems the west is now beginning to warm to with the Switch).

 

[tuna]

PSP managed to garner a relatively significant amount of Japanese dev support, together with some noteworthy western support. With Vita, it seemed as if Sony tried to focus too much on western dev support and lost a lot of Japanese dev support, with many of the big key Japanese games like MonHun exclusive to the 3DS (when the PSP had enjoyed releases in this series).

I would love to know what happened between Capcom and Sony regarding Monster Hunter. MH sold extremely well on PSP and Vita seemed like the perfect platform to continue the series. Capcom even showed MHP3 on the Vita unveiling. But then something happened.....

 

[Prophecy2k]

I would love to know what happened between Capcom and Sony regarding Monster Hunter. MH sold extremely well on PSP and Vita seemed like the perfect platform to continue the series. Capcom even showed MHP3 on the Vita unveiling. But then something happened.....

I'd wager Nintendo made them an offer that they couldn't refuse. I mean at the time, the WiiU was floundering, so for Ninty their handheld business was their meat and potatoes. They would have been ready to go all in on a deal, whereas Playstation probably wasn't so keen to dump too much cash into their risky Vita business when PS4 was their bread and butter.

Edit:
All assumption and speculation, mind.

 

[milk]

I'd wager Nintendo made them an offer that they couldn't refuse. I mean at the time, the WiiU was floundering, so for Ninty their handheld business was their meat and potatoes. They would have been ready to go all in on a deal, whereas Playstation probably wasn't so keen to dump too much cash into their risky Vita business when PS4 was their bread and butter.

Edit:
All assumption and speculation, mind.

So, 3ds was nintendo's meat and potatoes, and ps4 sony's bread and butter. Does that make xbox microsoft's secret sauce?

 

[arijoytunir]

ps4 was designed as a home console with a definite power budget in mind ,making that a portable will be inefficient . 3 GB of gddr5 ram for os functions for a gaming portable is very inefficient . Now cerny told digital foundry that there will be a new generation of consoles . so what sony might do is design a portable and a home console or a hybrid with scalable apu ( new gen breaking all ties with ps4 family ) . This APU could feature arm cpu and whatever gpu that will suit sony's needs at different power budgets .

 

[Prophecy2k]

So, 3ds was nintendo's meat and potatoes, and ps4 sony's bread and butter. Does that make xbox microsoft's secret sauce?

Not so much secret sauce, since it's not much of a secret. I'd say MS's "special" sauce, but def a sauce, since for MS, Office and Windows are its main source of protein and carbohydrates.

ps4 was designed as a home console with a definite power budget in mind ,making that a portable will be inefficient . 3 GB of gddr5 ram for os functions for a gaming portable is very inefficient . Now cerny told digital foundry that there will be a new generation of consoles . so what sony might do is design a portable and a home console or a hybrid with scalable apu ( new gen breaking all ties with ps4 family ) . This APU could feature arm cpu and whatever gpu that will suit sony's needs at different power budgets .

Why would a die shrunk PS4 portable intended to duplicate the full functionality of its console big brother suddenly become inefficient? Unless you think the console is inefficient itself? I'm not sure I follow your logic here.

I think the business case for a portable PS4 is pretty clear, i.e. a device that does and plays everything a console PS4 can do, out of the box but also in a portable form-factor.

Any portable device with a different hw configuration that requires any significant effort on the part of developers will be destined to fail.

A dedicated portable device that runs parallel to their home console business and requires independent developer support for games is a dead end for Sony. They've shown with the Vita and the PSP to a lesser extent, that they need third parties to be able to make the platform viable, and the business case for creating dedicated games for a new portable platform from Sony (a company whose last one was a failure) for third parties wouldn't be very strong at all.

Sony essentially has to make a portable full fat PS4, with all the bells and whistles and nothing cut down, that is compatible with all existing PS4 games without requiring patches or updates, or they needn't bother with a portable at all. It's pretty much all or nothing from a business perspective.

Funnily enough, the idea of a portable tablet PS4 is like the entire opposite of the Vita TV. And actually, it's a far more compelling idea for a device than Vita or Vita TV ever were; to both new customers and existing PS4 owners. I know I'd buy one.

 

[arijoytunir]

Not so much secret sauce, since it's not much of a secret. I'd say MS's "special" sauce, but def a sauce, since for MS, Office and Windows are its main source of protein and carbohydrates.



Why would a die shrunk PS4 portable intended to duplicate the full functionality of its console big brother suddenly become inefficient? Unless you think the console is inefficient itself? I'm not sure I follow your logic here.

I think the business case for a portable PS4 is pretty clear, i.e. a device that does and plays everything a console PS4 can do, out of the box but also in a portable form-factor.

Any portable device with a different hw configuration that requires any significant effort on the part of developers will be destined to fail.

A dedicated portable device that runs parallel to their home console business and requires independent developer support for games is a dead end for Sony. They've shown with the Vita and the PSP to a lesser extent, that they need third parties to be able to make the platform viable, and the business case for creating dedicated games for a new portable platform from Sony (a company whose last one was a failure) for third parties wouldn't be very strong at all.

Sony essentially has to make a portable full fat PS4, with all the bells and whistles and nothing cut down, that is compatible with all existing PS4 games without requiring patches or updates, or they needn't bother with a portable at all. It's pretty much all or nothing from a business perspective.

Funnily enough, the idea of a portable tablet PS4 is like the entire opposite of the Vita TV. And actually, it's a far more compelling idea for a device than Vita or Vita TV ever were; to both new customers and existing PS4 owners. I know I'd buy one.

i'm just suggesting that if the ps4 platform was designed with portability in mind from the first and not just compete with the switch mid generation. Just look at storage situation , how will the big AAA 50-60GB games will be transferable to the portable where the storage solution is only solid state options which are much expensive compared to mechanical ones even if the modified ps4 apu is possible to fit in the portable power budget. The logic is that sony should design the platform with scalability in mind and not just pro hardware scalability but downward lower powered scalability considering all factors such as storage options.

 

[Prophecy2k]

i'm just suggesting that if the ps4 platform was designed with portability in mind from the first and not just compete with the switch mid generation. Just look at storage situation , how will the big AAA 50-60GB games will be transferable to the portable where the storage solution is only solid state options which are much expensive compared to mechanical ones even if the modified ps4 apu is possible to fit in the portable power budget. The logic is that sony should design the platform with scalability in mind and not just pro hardware scalability but downward lower powered scalability considering all factors such as storage options.

So you're arguing that Sony should have been able to predict the future, to know both what the Switch was supposed to be and how it would perform? Or as per your previous post, are you arguing that Sony should abandon their existing strategy that resulted in them selling 60m+ consoles in less than 4 yrs, to compete with a device that hasn't even been on the market long enough to understand its long-term sales trajectory, despite initial promising sales (all at the expense of killing any potential for BC, as well as the ability to leverage some or all part of their OS and SDK software stack investments)?

A portable PS4 would not be about competing with the switch, rather offering one of the Switch's main USP features in a complementary PS4 SKU. It would still be a PS4, not a new platform. As for storage, a 128GB SSD costs less than a 1TB HDD. If MS can fit one in my SurfaceBook tablet portion, then Sony can in a hypothetical PS4Portable. It's an issue of form-factor, and even a portable PS4 in a small laptop form-factor could be a nice way to go.

I don't understand what you mean by "design hardware with scalability in mind" though? If it's a console or portable, it will have a fixed hardware configuration. If you mean, design PS5 with the limitations of portable hardware in mind then I would entirely reject the idea based on my reasoning above. Essentially that would be Sony making PS5 as a Switch2... no thanks.

A PS4Portable allows them to maintain their home console dominance, while providing an additional option for those looking for more portability in their gaming (e.g. Japanese and Asian markets).

 

[arijoytunir]

As for storage, a 128GB SSD costs less than a 1TB HDD. If MS can fit one in my SurfaceBook tablet portion, then Sony can in a hypothetical PS4Portable.

and ps4 portable is now a $1500 machine .

And i'm sure when cerny said they believe in clean cut generations , they wont hesitate to cut all ps4 bc support.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

A portable PS4 would not be about competing with the switch, rather offering one of the Switch's main USP features in a complementary PS4 SKU.

and ps4 portable is now a $1500 machine .

64GB of high-end eMMC 5.1 (a lot faster than a PS4's HDD already) cost 40€ (probably close to 30€ in large quantities), but you think two of these chips would make a PS4 Portable cost $1500...

And i'm sure when cerny said they believe in clean cut generations , they wont hesitate to cut all ps4 bc support.

A PS4 Portable wouldn't be a PS5 and no one suggested that.