Vista/Crysis/dx10

btwango

Newcomer
Come the announcement of the release date of Crysis I will be purchasing a new computer. I wish to play this game with as much eye-candy switched on that will allow acceptable frame rates. The eye-candy part dictates Vista/dx10. Do people forsee Vista becoming a good gaming o/s? I mean the dx10 versions/benchmarks so far have not been all that impressive. My understanding is that Crysis is a dx9 game with some dx10 paths. According to this review http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2143672,00.asp of CoH the dx10 patch brings very small visual gains at the expense of a 2/3s drop in performance. Two thirds drop!!! I'm thinking that any computer will be struggling to run run Crysis with all the eye-candy switched on with out having to labour with mediocre dx10 performance. So should I get vista and hope that patching will get fps up to speed or stick with tried and tested XP?

Your thoughts would be appreciated
Btwango
 
You need latest BETA drivers to experience CoH D3D10 patch, on nVidia.
(BTW, the comparison between Apples and Oranges is not fair, D3D10 mode doesn't display the same thing as D3D9 mode... But yeah, I went back playing in D3D9 on my own due to perf issues, that I consider to be drivers issues for now.)

Besides the fact that you need D3D10 to use the latest hardware features, and that D3D10 comes only with Vista is ONLY a mean for MS to sell you Windows Vista.
It's that lame really.

It's up to you, do you want to support MS by buying Vista ?
Do you want the latest games using the latest hardware to play ?


[edit]
since there's that new article on B3D, I think I should be clearer, D3D10 is the API that only works for high end hardware, so it's normal that D3D10 games look much better than D3D9 games.
D3D10 could be done for Windows XP, I'm talking about the API and the D3D9 flaws addressed, I'm not talking about the whole drivers architecture meant for Aero.
 
Come the announcement of the release date of Crysis I will be purchasing a new computer. I wish to play this game with as much eye-candy switched on that will allow acceptable frame rates. The eye-candy part dictates Vista/dx10. Do people forsee Vista becoming a good gaming o/s? I mean the dx10 versions/benchmarks so far have not been all that impressive. My understanding is that Crysis is a dx9 game with some dx10 paths. According to this review http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2143672,00.asp of CoH the dx10 patch brings very small visual gains at the expense of a 2/3s drop in performance. Two thirds drop!!! I'm thinking that any computer will be struggling to run run Crysis with all the eye-candy switched on with out having to labour with mediocre dx10 performance. So should I get vista and hope that patching will get fps up to speed or stick with tried and tested XP?

Your thoughts would be appreciated
Btwango

Switching to DX10 on the 3 games that support it currently does kill performance but thats not a Vista issue, its a game/driver/hardware issue. With the latest drivers Vista is basically as fast as XP in DX9 now and at least in my experience is just as stable and compatable (with newer games).

At the end of the day the rest of the world IS going to move to Vista eventually. So sticking with XP is only going to mean you get left behind if your considering it as a long term option. If is just a stop gap until you feel Vista is ready then thats obviously a matter of personal preference but at least in terms of Crysis, it seems the graphical differences between DX9 and DX10 are significant:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=19965&type=mov&pl=game
 
My understanding is that Crysis is a dx9 game with some dx10 paths. According to this review http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2143672,00.asp of CoH the dx10 patch brings very small visual gains at the expense of a 2/3s drop in performance. Two thirds drop!!!
Crysis has been built with DX10 in mind essentially since the graphics engine's early stages of development. Why do I bother to mention this? Because CoH's engine was not. Snapping a few extra graphical features into a DX9 engine and calling it DX10 really isn't a fair way to asses the true performance "impact" from switching.

If you do more research on Crysis, you'll find the devs talking about DX10 giving them performance enhancements which allow them to turn on more features without sacrificing framerate on machines with DX10 available. That's not what the developers of CoH did.

From the developers' feedback, I'd say that DX10 in Crysis will not provide any additional performance benefit for the most part, but will offer better visual fidelity instead.

[edit]
since there's that new article on B3D, I think I should be clearer, D3D10 is the API that only works for high end hardware, so it's normal that D3D10 games look much better than D3D9 games.
D3D10 could be done for Windows XP, I'm talking about the API and the D3D9 flaws addressed, I'm not talking about the whole drivers architecture meant for Aero.
For a staff member, I'd think you'd be intimately aware that the Aero interface is not hinging on the new driver architecture, nor does Aero have any link to DX10.

As for D3D10 being done on XP? Sure, you could implement the API. But many of the flaws in D3D9 are related to unnecessary overhead, and those could not be addressed without completely rewriting the kernel. Which means completely new drivers, which means all the same performance and driver headaches on your beloved XP as you're seeing on Vista. And to what end? Why completely rewrite the core underpinnings of an old OS? That doesn't make sense at all, and I behoove you to tell me why it DOES make sense for any reason other than you want Microsoft to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of hours of manpower to give you something for free.

Brand new hardware works better on Vista than it does on XP, in my opinion. My Dell laptop with a Core Duo, 2gb of ram, 7200rpm hdd, 7300Go 128mb video and Intel 3945 A/G/B wireless definitely boots faster, shuts down faster, sleeps faster, wakes up faster and multitasks better with Vista than it did with XP SP2.

My "old" Prescott 3.0Ghz S478 processor OC'd to 4.0ghz, along with a 7900GT, 2 x 250gb raid 0 drive array, Envy24PT audio, Intel CSA gigabit lan and 2GB of ram also works better on Vista. That's not to say that everyones' computer will do better, but mine do.

What's funny is, I've got a brand-spanking-new Lenovo Thinkpad T60 with a Core 2 Duo, 7200RPM drive, 2gb of ram and ATI x1400 that does not do well on Vista, and I can't really understand why. I'm beginning to think it may be a BIOS/Firmware issue, or maybe a wireless card that is just causing more than it's fair share of problems.

So, do some homework on the parts you buy, and you should be fine. Vista is a great OS, albeit a tad expensive. Still, I spent ~$350 total for one copy of Ultimate and two copies of Home Premium -- so like $115 each? That's like $20 more than I paid for a copy of XP Pro, so I don't really think it's that expensive. And with all the other features of Vista, I think it's a decent deal.
 
For a staff member, I'd think you'd be intimately aware that the Aero interface is not hinging on the new driver architecture, nor does Aero have any link to DX10.

My understanding is that WDDM is not related to DX10, but it is related to the new D3D resource management on Windows Vista.

(Also that's what make Vista more stable [it being cut into Kernel and User Space modules] and supposedly allow driver upgrade w/o reboot [someone should tell that to nVidia])

You need WDDM drivers to be able to run Aero. (and of course not all cards have it, PS20 required)


Some parts of the WDDM aren't required for an OS which doesn't have a 3D Desktop.

(BTW, if you have any article covering WDDM or Aero in depth, I'm interested.)

As for D3D10 being done on XP? Sure, you could implement the API. But many of the flaws in D3D9 are related to unnecessary overhead, and those could not be addressed without completely rewriting the kernel. Which means completely new drivers, which means all the same performance and driver headaches on your beloved XP as you're seeing on Vista.

It can be done, that's the whole point, and not to the cost of a complete kernel rewrite, only the gfx part would be affected, not the whole thing.


About your experience on Vista, you're about on par with me, things are rather nice, except for the increased memory usage, and some software compatibility issues.

My opinion is that D3D10 isn't *that* great, things look good because only GF8/R6xx can run it, and they are the latest hardware (so fastest and with more features), it could be done on XP at not such a high cost (but definetly expensive), and upgrading to Vista is a no go, but getting it with a brand new computer is definetly the right choice (if you want an MS OS that is).

Sorry if I wasn't clear previously.
 
So, do some homework on the parts you buy, and you should be fine. Vista is a great OS, albeit a tad expensive. Still, I spent ~$350 total for one copy of Ultimate and two copies of Home Premium -- so like $115 each? That's like $20 more than I paid for a copy of XP Pro, so I don't really think it's that expensive. And with all the other features of Vista, I think it's a decent deal.

I'd be inteterested in one copy of Vista Home Basic, but I checked and it's 279 euros, as expensive as a major hardware upgrade. sure microsoft wants me to buy an OEM but I'm not sure which one is the worse value, so that pricing policy only give me incentive to use either XP pro corporate or linux.
 
Wow, that really is pretty f'in ridiculous. What's the cost of WinXP Pro over there?
 
bill certainly does like ripping off us europeans....

Gotta pay those EU fines somehow :)

And we can't even buy the US versions over the Internet, because Microsoft are still working on the tricky problem of allowing people a) make payments over the Internet, and b) download some files over the Internet. I can understand how putting those two things together might tax the resources of a multi-billion dollar IT company. If they can pull it off, it'll be ground-breaking. I can sympathise though and I'm sure it hurts them as much as it hurts us to be forced to rip us off in the interim, and I'm sure they've got hundreds if not thousands of people working night and day to figure out a way to charge us the same price for the same product that the Yanks seem to be quite happy with.
 
it's 100€ and 125€ for home basic and home premium OEM.

YIkes, that's essentially the "retail" prices on this side of the pond. You guys get raped pretty good huh? :oops:

Well, in that case, Vista really isn't worth it. Home Premium is about where I'd draw the line for usefulness as a complete OS, but with that kind of price tag, I can't blame anyone for skipping it.
 
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