Value of Hardware Unboxed benchmarking

[Cappuccino]

All GPUs have drivers which have OS requirements which in turn have rather specific system requirements. It's more that in case of Arc the requirements are a bit unusual due to their reliance on rebar support by the h/w and the OS.

This isn't the same thing at all though. Windows barely has system requirements beyond sometimes needing TPM2.0 (easily bypassed). Prior to that you could run Windows 10 on essentially anything somewhat modern, I had it running on numerous 2nd gen Intel system for work.

I get people's points here about system minimum requirements but I've also never heard or seen a GPU having a CPU system requirement. I agree it is likely Resizeable BAR, and I'm not sure I would describe this situation as a 'problem', just something to consider (that said an upgrade from a 2600 to a 5600X should basically be a drop in upgrade once you update the mobo drivers so are there really people on such a tight budget they can't upgrade CPUs but can buy new GPUs?).

Still, I think it's worth exploring. I would say this isn't even one of their objectionable/controversial videos.

 

[DegustatoR]

Windows barely has system requirements

Every version of Windows has system requirements.

 

[Gangst]

Every version of Windows has system requirements.

To be fair, taking W10 (almost identical to W11) as an example -

• Processor: 1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster processor or SoC
• RAM: 1 gigabyte (GB) for 32-bit or 2 GB for 64-bit
• Hard disk space: 16 GB for 32-bit OS or 20 GB for 64-bit OS
• Graphics card: DirectX 9 or later with WDDM 1.0 driver
• Display: 800 x 600

Zen+ may be old, but OS system requirements are so low that you have to go pretty far back to find hardware that doesn't qualify - to the point that they might as well not exist for 99.9% of cases. I could easily imagine a low-income gamer running a B580 with their R5 2600 (a perfectly usable CPU in early 2025) - I would have to go dumpster diving for hardware beneath OS system requirements. Rebar and TPM2.0 requirements are anomalies. I guess you could argue that SSDs are a modern requirement but technically you can run off a HDD.

 

[homerdog]

It's weird to have such a CPU requirement for a GPU. Ryzen 2600 can still play most games decently. It's also weird to not mention in a video testing the card on an old CPU that it says on the box not to use that CPU. Seems worth mentioning.

 

[Rys]

There's a litany of things you literally can't do with Windows 10 or 11 if you use it on a PC at the minimum system requirements.

Anyone who thinks that achievable performance isn't itself a feature, that therefore necessarily depends on other hardware (and software) features, is interested in operating the wrong type of computer. This is how the PC platform has worked forever, and is the price you have always paid in exchange for such a wide choice of hardware, and freedom to run arbitrary software.

Nobody should be surprised that achievable performance for a component could be limited by another hardware feature like resizeable BAR. It's not even a hard requirement, and other vendor GPUs also go slower if you turn it off.

 

[Sega_Model_4]

To be fair, taking W10 (almost identical to W11) as an example -

• Processor: 1 gigahertz (GHz) or faster processor or SoC
• RAM: 1 gigabyte (GB) for 32-bit or 2 GB for 64-bit
• Hard disk space: 16 GB for 32-bit OS or 20 GB for 64-bit OS
• Graphics card: DirectX 9 or later with WDDM 1.0 driver
• Display: 800 x 600

Zen+ may be old, but OS system requirements are so low that you have to go pretty far back to find hardware that doesn't qualify - to the point that they might as well not exist for 99.9% of cases. I could easily imagine a low-income gamer running a B580 with their R5 2600 (a perfectly usable CPU in early 2025) - I would have to go dumpster diving for hardware beneath OS system requirements. Rebar and TPM2.0 requirements are anomalies. I guess you could argue that SSDs are a modern requirement but technically you can run off a HDD.

These specifications, if you look in detail, have detailed specifications for the CPUs.

Windows Processor Requirements

This specification details the processors that can be used by OEMs to manufacture Customer Systems that include Windows Products (including Custom Images).

learn.microsoft.com

Windows 10 22H2 supports CPUs from Richland, AMD APUs from 2013. Intel, around the 7th generation. These 1 GHZ refer to some Intel Atom.
The system can function normally outside these specifications, but support and operation guarantees are compromised. It applies more to OEMs as a way of forcing them to follow a standard.
I remember this debate at the time of the launch of Windows 11, where it was stated that the CPU requirement already existed before, the only difference was that this became mandatory (although this was circumventable).

 

[Scott_Arm]

It's weird to have such a CPU requirement for a GPU. Ryzen 2600 can still play most games decently. It's also weird to not mention in a video testing the card on an old CPU that it says on the box not to use that CPU. Seems worth mentioning.

Even weirder is to send emails to AMD to comment and ask for feedback when you're testing an unsupported CPU. Hardware Canucks tested on a 9th gen intel, but 10th gen is the minimum listed. Seems kind of weird to request for comment and then put out a video highlighting this as a problem, but not mention you're testing below the minimum requirements. The box doesn't even say "recommended" requirements. It says, "minimum system requirements."

Again, saying Intel should have supported older hardware because they're in a perfect position to capitalize on people looking for an easy upgrade is totally valid. The way this was presented is a little off the mark. Would have been far more interesting to see it tested at the minimum system requirements to see if the issue is still there.

 

[RobertR1]

Next video. DLSS doesn’t work on 1080ti! Has nvidia abandoned its user base?

 

[Man from Atlantis]

ReBAR is enabled for every single configuration in the above graph.

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/x/status/1875378992871809367

 

[Cappuccino]

Every version of Windows has system requirements.

Do you know what the word ‘barely’ means? Would you agree that ‘a 1GHz CPU is barely a requirement and essentially says just use a CPU manufactured in the past 15-20 years?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Nobody should be surprised that achievable performance for a component could be limited by another hardware feature like resizeable BAR. It's not even a hard requirement, and other vendor GPUs also go slower if you turn it off.

Other GPUs on the same old PC hardware will encounter similar issues? Why isn't the 4060, for example, similarly affected?

 

[DegustatoR]

Do you know what the word ‘barely’ means? Would you agree that ‘a 1GHz CPU is barely a requirement and essentially says just use a CPU manufactured in the past 15-20 years?

Barely or not there are system requirements which you can't just ignore and proceed to state that something isn't working when you think it should.

 

[pcchen]

Other GPUs on the same old PC hardware will encounter similar issues? Why isn't the 4060, for example, similarly affected?

This probably deserves a more thorough investigation, but I don't think a simple "more overhead" is a good explanation.
For example, it's quite possible that Intel decided to not invest more resources optimizing for non-rebar systems because newer systems all have rebar enabled. This does not necessarily mean B580 is bad, it simlply reflects the fact that NVIDIA has been around in the GPU market for much longer when rebar was not a thing and they (both NVIDIA and AMD) already spent a lot of resources on these optimizations.

I think it can be argued that B580 runs slower on non-rebar system is a good information and potential customers should know about this, although Intel clearly stated that it's a "requirement" but apparently many people don't know about this. However, it's probably not positive or even correct to just lump all these into a simple explanation of "because B580 has more overhead" without better evidence.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What's ReBAR and why use it or not?

 

[RobertR1]

What's ReBAR and why use it or not?

What Is Resizable BAR and How Do I Enable It?

Explains what is Resizable BAR, how to enable it, and describes how it can impact performance.

www.intel.com

There are a few titles that can have regression and it’s not for every game.

You enable it in bios on the cpu side and then the gpu and drivers can access the resource pool. For example nvidia in their driver updates will enable rebar for certain titles while off for others. It’s not a universal on = better.

 

[homerdog]

After the latest video, this "overhead problem" doesn't seem related to ReBAR. In Spiderman the B580 only wins vs 4060 with a 9800X3D. Even dropping to a Ryzen 7600 sees the 4060 come out ahead.

So I'm back to thinking Steve's conclusion was correct with "Intel Arc B580 Overhead Issue! Upgraders Beware". This is a problem that people should be aware of. He could have avoided so much criticism if he just mentioned that the Ryzen 2600 is below the min spec for the B580 and framed the video within this context.

 

[Scott_Arm]

the new video is a lot better. Shows the issue very clearly across a range of cpus that meet intels minimum requirements.

 

[trinibwoy]

The most amazing thing about that video is that the 4060 is CPU limited on a 3600 and sometimes even a 5600 What’s going on with CPUs these days.

 

[Cappuccino]

Barely or not there are system requirements which you can't just ignore and proceed to state that something isn't working when you think it should.

I understand most critiques of HUB but if you have to claim Windows has real system requirements then you’ve lost the plot lol.

Most GPUs just require a working system, Windows basically lets you use anything and even failing that you have Linux, where most distros have even lower requirements. This is the only GPU I’ve seen ever that has system requirements beyond the basic stuff required to run the latest version of windows.

 

[homerdog]

I understand most critiques of HUB but if you have to claim Windows has real system requirements then you’ve lost the plot lol.

Most GPUs just require a working system, Windows basically lets you use anything and even failing that you have Linux, where most distros have even lower requirements. This is the only GPU I’ve seen ever that has system requirements beyond the basic stuff required to run the latest version of windows.

Generally I agree but Windows 11 does have some meaningful requirements . You can work around them to a point, but this isn't something I would go recommending to people. Could lead to unexpected behavior. E.g. Bitlocker should always be supported but this wouldn't be the case on old, unsupported hardware.

Windows 10 can run on just about anything.