Svensk Viking
Regular
Uncharted 3
- Thread starter corduroygt
- Start date
This is why I prefer to have the co-op and SP campaign to be the same. It forces the game to rely on the strength of it's game mechanics, instead of scripted setpieces. It gives the players more options to the game the way they want to.
Rfom for example has a much better SP campaign compared to R2 for this reason.
RenegadeRocks
Legend
For this very same reason RE5 campaign was pathetic compared to RE4 ! It worked only in co-op,as an SP it was just a botmatch !
I suspect it may depend on the specific game design. Built-in coop is not guaranteed to be worse off although it should take longer to develope a co-op SP (which may translate to tech compromises).
Sure ! I think co-op in some FPSes are fun too.
I actually happen to think co-op is great in shooters. It was brilliant in CoD:WaW and in RFOM. That's partly because in those games, you're mostly surrounded by allies anyway, so someone of the team taking up a co-op position works well and only benefits the game and your options as a player.
Uncharted however is a game that isn't a plain shooter - it includes lots of platforming, puzzles and is very story driven. Sometimes, there's just more suspence when you suddenly find yourself all alone without the help of any ally in a sticky situation. If you have co-op, then you must have a 2nd character at your side at all times, which potentially decreases the freedom and creativity in the story telling and it also degrades the game-play design to more of a shooter, aka botmatch. Uncharted is better than this.
That's true. The coop side to Uncharted 2 was just shooting. The platforming mechanic was only one player, and could only be one player unless they design the game from the ground up for more. It could be done - when Drake is climbing up a wall, they could be doing something else useful that AI bots could take over when soloing - but it would be a lot of work and impact freedom in the solo experience.
I suppose in that regard I have to back down my position, although if they provide the shooty aspect as the full campaign and gloss over the interrim platforming, I'll be happy enough.
I suppose in that regard I have to back down my position, although if they provide the shooty aspect as the full campaign and gloss over the interrim platforming, I'll be happy enough.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
Well… co-op for Demon's Souls saved a lot of people too.
I just don't think co-op is always bad for SP games.
It also killed alot of people too ;-)
heheOn a serious note though i think you're right Patsu, coop doesn't have to water down the gameplay experience of a game. I think open-world/semi-open fantasy adventures like DS work really nice with games like Demons Souls...
I do question though why a game wouldn't work in coop without being specifically designed for it? I mean what is it about a game like U2 than wouldn't work if you had two people playing? Alot of the game you were running round with more than just drake... If they simply swapped out the AI character for a real player, they don't even need to increase the enemy count or anything like that in my opinion. And i don't see any valid reason the platforming wouldn't work with two people?
I know it's something lots of devs say, in that to have campaign coop you need to specifically design the game for it. But look at a game like Lost Planet. The first one was awesome, and in my opinion if they'd have simply replicated what they did with the first game by adding in an extra player but not changing any aspect of the game it would have undeniably have made LP2 a better game than we got.
If it's cut scenes that are the issue then why not take a leaf out of Valves book and do real time ones where the player can do what he likes during them. If the 2 players want to prat about during an exchange then let them do that. But then again the nature of "cut"-scenes are such that the effect is no different with one players or two. Therefore the game designers ability to tell a solid story in a coop game isn't diminished.
In this light, and as much as people like to rag on RE5 (i never played RE4) i thought that RE5 was for me the best coop experience i've had this gen. Mainly because even though the game was a very coop experience it still was able to tell a fantastic and gripping story (as far as video game stories go)... again i never played RE4
Even a game like GTA would work perfectly well without changing any of the mechanics or gameplay by simply throwing in an extra player. If anything Saints Row 2 proved this fact for me.
So i ask again, what exactly is it that makes game devs think they need to turn a game into a botmatch just to accomodate 2 human players?
Faux Edit: If this is too off-topic for an uncharted 3 thread then any chance we can get it spun off into it's own thread. I think it's an interesting subject for discussion in its own right ;-)
A lot of the time the AI character was doing nothing waiting for Drake to traverse scenery. The AI characters hardly traversed scenery, making that side irrelevant to the coop player. You'd basically be a shooting henchman. Actually that wouldn't be too bad in local play with Uncharted 3 where it's entertaining to just watch someone else play. We played hotseat with Uncharted 1, passing the controller round and giving advice when it wasn't our turn. A local henchman mode wouldn't be bad. But it would be a long way from the ideal of 3+ player cooperative adventuring which would need to be designed from the ground up to ensure every player ahd something to do at every point, and no-one was standing around doing nothing for ten to fifteen minutes as the main player struggles to make a series of leaps.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
But then even with the very best efforts in trying to design for this you still end up in sutuations in coop games where this can happen.
I can remember many times playing RE5 when got a bit miffed having to spam the "c-c-c'mon!" button because i need to throw sheva up to a higher level and she was pratting around.
Plus an Uncharted coop campaign experience, "ideally" shouldn't be anymore than 2 players in my opinion because then of course it would change the game completely and would require a complete redesign to accomodate that. I still think though that throwing a second player in U2 two wouldn't have made it any less fun, and again because you're not changing the gameplay mechanics, just adding an optional mode, it wouldn't take anything away from the single player experience when you want to play alone (unlike RE5).
Sure if a game goes over the 2 player count for a coop experience then it should ideally be designed around that. But for me, and i may be a bit naive in this, i can't see why it's necessary to have to redesign an entire game simply for two players as opposed to one.
I think another good example of this is GeOW, as that game play for me very similarly in coop as it does in SP. I can enjoy the game equally in both modes and coop only really enhances the experience, especially when it's someone i know that i'm playing with. But i guess that just goes further to support the fact that pure mindless shooters can easily do this, as even if the game was just a botmatch you wouldn't tell the difference between coop or SP because that's just the nature of the game anyways.
I also agree that 2 player coop platforming would be great and i think people might even enjoy helping each other through various jumps and puzzles as that's really what "coop" play is really all about... working together
I dare say that's true, although I haven't played many coop games that aren't simplistic in their story and gameplay so it doesn't matter. That's where a game like War in the North, that is designed from the ground up for 3 player coop and substitutes players for AI bots, shows the way forward, as its gameplay can be carefully engineered withing the story to ensure everyone has something to do and issues are kept to a minimum. Because Uncharted is already of a particulat formula, ND can't much change that without potentially alienating their fanbase. They have to provide the same core Drake experience, climbing, jumping and shooting, and then try and add coop into that. Sure, it'd be better than nothing, although 2 player coop is a bad call IMO as it too minimal. I wouldn't be against it myself, but I would much rather play an Uncharted game that's built around three players say, each doing their part. Something like U2's heist, you could have three people in different parts of the level enabling and supporting each other. That sort of dependency makes for fabulous cooperative (not just multiple independent players in the same game) gaming. It'd need to be designed in though.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
Well if U3 wasn't announced i would say that they could always follow their typical Naughty Dog formula and do a spin-off game for 3+ player coop designed for the ground up around that hehe
Alas however we shall have to make do with U3 until they have time after it's finished to make THE PERFECT COOP GAME
heheAlas however we shall have to make do with U3 until they have time after it's finished to make THE PERFECT COOP GAME
dragonelite
Veteran
Dont think this has been posted not sure where to place this.
It's about using google sketch up for 3D concept art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkPRmqUlFw&feature=player_embedded
It's about using google sketch up for 3D concept art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkPRmqUlFw&feature=player_embedded
There was some platforming in U2 coop, which works about the same as you described with one guy climbing while the other two provide suppressing fire.
I like the way they handled the coop element, keeping it separate from the core single player experience. Hopefully they'll keep it the same way in U3.
To a tiddly little degree. The platforming is very watered down versus Drake's main adventure where platforming is a good quarter or so of the experience. think Uncharted 1's exploration with Sully standing around as Drake jumps all over the shop - that wouldn't work one player, and you can't have firefights constantly to keep the other players occupied.
ShadowRunner
Veteran
All they have to do is take out the platform bits and offer up big chuncks of gameplay that just involve the shootouts as seperate coop levels. Make it an unlock for completing the game once in single player and everyones happy.
Sounds quite a lot like Uncharted 2 already.
ShadowRunner
Veteran
Yep pretty much, just reusing parts of the single player campaign rather than having to develope a whole seperate mode.
