Tomb Raider: Underworld

vazel said:
When people said the PS3 version didn't have motion blur on NeoGAF someone kept providing this link to a developer on the game saying otherwise. So which is it, does the PS3 version have motion blur or not?
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Maybe it has screen based but not object based like the 360 version? I can't say for sure though since I don't have either.
 
Arwin said:
If they don't understand themselves, that's kind of unlikely unless the OS does it automagically without telling you and fakes additional RAM. It seems more likely something to do with texture compression formats and how they are handled, but even that's weird. Perhaps it is something to do with the 360 side of things, the way it handles a certain format or way of rendering, but I haven't a clue. Unless it's actually more bandwidth related as its known I think there's a bandwidth issue somewhere in the 360's pipeline, that maybe causes memory not to be freed up sooner.

It's all guessing though when they themselves don't know!
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Not so much that it was unexpected that we'd be using less memory on PS3 because the assets themselves were built that way in some cases, and also because some of the hacks we had to do in order to save memory on 360 were already in place on the PS3 from the get-go... Even with all that, the difference shouldn't have been enough that we would never have run into memory troubles on PS3. There should have been cases where both platforms ran into it, and that either didn't happen or it somehow was fixed below the radar before it was caught on PS3 -- often times, these sorts of things get noticed first on 360 since there are many times fewer steps required for artists to test/debug on a 360 kit, so they'll usually use that.

As far as the black voodoo types of things, well, that's pretty much creeping around just about everywhere, and there's always somewhere where mystical code fairies get their tentacles within reach and things mysteriously disappear when you do a clean build, but given what history has shown, I think the ninja bugfixing is a more likely possibility. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.
 
ShootMyMonkey said:
Not so much that it was unexpected that we'd be using less memory on PS3 because the assets themselves were built that way in some cases, and also because some of the hacks we had to do in order to save memory on 360 were already in place on the PS3 from the get-go... Even with all that, the difference shouldn't have been enough that we would never have run into memory troubles on PS3. There should have been cases where both platforms ran into it, and that either didn't happen or it somehow was fixed below the radar before it was caught on PS3 -- often times, these sorts of things get noticed first on 360 since there are many times fewer steps required for artists to test/debug on a 360 kit, so they'll usually use that.

As far as the black voodoo types of things, well, that's pretty much creeping around just about everywhere, and there's always somewhere where mystical code fairies get their tentacles within reach and things mysteriously disappear when you do a clean build, but given what history has shown, I think the ninja bugfixing is a more likely possibility. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.
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:oops::???:

It very much sounded like you thought the PS3 version was also sub-HD before TRU was released...
 
ShootMyMonkey said:
Not so much that it was unexpected that we'd be using less memory on PS3 because the assets themselves were built that way in some cases, and also because some of the hacks we had to do in order to save memory on 360 were already in place on the PS3 from the get-go... Even with all that, the difference shouldn't have been enough that we would never have run into memory troubles on PS3. There should have been cases where both platforms ran into it, and that either didn't happen or it somehow was fixed below the radar before it was caught on PS3 -- often times, these sorts of things get noticed first on 360 since there are many times fewer steps required for artists to test/debug on a 360 kit, so they'll usually use that.
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Are the texture resolutions actually any different? Quincunx does blur the texture detail to an extent (having a higher resolution back buffer helps obviate the effect), and mipmapping for a lower resolution framebuffer combined with blur from upscale would be similar in visual output on screen (still looks not as good from the benefits of higher overall buffer res)..
 
deepbrown said:
:oops::???:

It very much sounded like you thought the PS3 version was also sub-HD before TRU was released...
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This post seems pretty clear. Well, the first two words at least :) The rest suggests you can't be sub-HD on PS3, when that's clearly not the case.

With regards the motion blur on PS3, it's there in cut-scenes but there is absolutely no motion blur that I can see on the character of Lara in-game, whereas it's abundantely obvious that it's there on 360 even when viewing the character from a long way off. I can't say that it's a major issue for me.

I think Crystal Dynamics deserve kudos for 'going for it' on PS3. It's a game where the assets really do benefit from the additional resolution, even if frame rate (and thus response from the controls) can suffer at any given point.
 
Are there different means of doing Quincunx? Just wondering because while Ratchet&Clank looks very blurry (when I first played it I assumed my TV was merely upscaling a 480p signal. This was definitely not the case, though), Prince of Persia looks a hell of a lot more crisp and TR Underworld looks even better. In terms of image quality it's one of the best looking games on the system I'd say.
 
deepbrown said:
It very much sounded like you thought the PS3 version was also sub-HD before TRU was released...
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If you're referring to the same post that grandmaster linked, the only mention I had of sub-HD resolutions for PS3 was in regards to what I suspected we'd be using in the case of SDTV video output. Whether we actually use it or not isn't something I know for sure since I've never played the PS3 version at SD resolutions nor have I bothered to step through and look what specific resolutions were being used -- I only spoke of what was supported within the codebase at that time.

I believe that when one has lived through and experienced the events described in this beautiful, beautiful thread, one gains a different perspective, sees the world in a new way and such trivial and minor details loose their importance.
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Ah, the "hall of fame" version... The original URL of that thread has also had some additional stories added to it in the time since the copy was made in the Hall of Fame section... Maybe if there's enough motivation someday, I'll look back through my archives again and pick up a few more.

AlStrong said:
Are the texture resolutions actually any different?
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They could be -- I find it unlikely except for the few cases I'm aware of directly where it wasn't all that important in the first place. While it's possible for the build processes to be given settings to shrink textures to a lower setting for different platforms, that's something that's set up on an individual basis for each texture. FWIW, the textures we had which you could afford to shrink were things that got massive UV scaling and tiling and were used as underlying detail textures -- and those usually aren't very big textures to begin with.

There are cases within UI and lettering and so on where some shrinking occurred -- I only know of that because I was directly involved with the UI and the VM it uses. And those particular changes I'm thinking of were anyway done on 360 (and Wii, for that matter) after it was seen how much of a difference it made.
 
grandmaster said:
This post seems pretty clear. Well, the first two words at least :) The rest suggests you can't be sub-HD on PS3, when that's clearly not the case.

With regards the motion blur on PS3, it's there in cut-scenes but there is absolutely no motion blur that I can see on the character of Lara in-game, whereas it's abundantely obvious that it's there on 360 even when viewing the character from a long way off. I can't say that it's a major issue for me.

I think Crystal Dynamics deserve kudos for 'going for it' on PS3. It's a game where the assets really do benefit from the additional resolution, even if frame rate (and thus response from the controls) can suffer at any given point.
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I thought Nixxes ported the PS3 game, not Crystal Dynamics.
 
ShootMyMonkey said:
If you're referring to the same post that grandmaster linked, the only mention I had of sub-HD resolutions for PS3 was in regards to what I suspected we'd be using in the case of SDTV video output. Whether we actually use it or not isn't something I know for sure since I've never played the PS3 version at SD resolutions nor have I bothered to step through and look what specific resolutions were being used -- I only spoke of what was supported within the codebase at that time.
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No I'm talking about the posts where you conversed with me over the consoles not being up to doing 720p, and that it was more difficult on the PS3 because of the limited memory sources due to the OS using so much of it.
 
deepbrown said:
I thought Nixxes ported the PS3 game, not Crystal Dynamics.
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I'd be interested to know who did it.

Did Nixxes do the PC version too? The reason I ask is because PS3 Tomb Raider really has the look and feel of a PC title. It's a highly subjective sort of comment, I know, but just the way I feel about it.
 
grandmaster said:
I'd be interested to know who did it.

Did Nixxes do the PC version too? The reason I ask is because PS3 Tomb Raider really has the look and feel of a PC title. It's a highly subjective sort of comment, I know, but just the way I feel about it.
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Nobody... There is no port -- everything was multiplatform.

There's nothing written anywhere that doesn't ultimately affect every platform, and there's nobody involved who isn't worried about every platform... short of maybe Wii and PS2, which are done pretty much entirely by Buzz Monkey -- even so, there are subsystems that get integrated from the mainline code for those platforms every so often. As such, there are times when some of us have to worry about the previous-gen hardware platforms.

Long and short of it is that Nixxes and Crystal are joined at the hip. There's basically zero code that carries the signature of only one of the two studios. Both of us are involved in pretty much everything on every platform. Now if you want to talk about specific things like TRC/PCR compliance on PS3/PC and PC UI and mouse handlers, then yeah, that's mostly Nixxes. People like to think that there's a hard specificity to what the teams do because that makes it easy to point fingers in one direction, but it never has worked like that at any point.
 
Well... here's something: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=144406

Lindstrom, Creative Director, talks about some DLC stuff:

We had a production issue that was going to make us miss our ship date -- which we could not do -- and I needed to find a way to cut enough days from the schedule in a manner that would not rip a hole in the game that would take time to sew up. It was my idea to cut what was cut, and I did hope that it would one day be made available as a download mission, because there was great content already conceived and half completed, but on the day we made the cut, it was made purely for Underworld production reasons. Even if I was told on that day that we would never ever make a downloadable level, I still would have had to cut it. Anyone who says otherwise is speculating or heard someone else speculating, and is incorrect.
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Would a Spring release have been so terrible to finish what was started along with more time for polish :?: (Also considering how crowded the holidays usually are for games...)
 
So they cut some stuff and made it exclusive DLC and rushed the game to make the holidays?

And they call the gamers cynics when they say this kind of thing? ;)
 
AlStrong said:
Well... here's something: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=144406

Lindstrom, Creative Director, talks about some DLC stuff:
--- snipped quote ---
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Ummm... I have a pretty good idea what he was referring to and that particular quote isn't really talking about anything that actually was planned for the DLC, but rather a whole lot of generic stuff that hypothetically *could have been* deferred into DLC levels (for that matter, we were thinking about a lot of features that got cut and deferring them into patches as well). When actually devising the specific DLC levels, ultimately it was deemed a better idea to make them separate from the game in order to actually construct them as "extras" and not "missing components." Essentially making the cuts genuinely cut. Besides which, a choice like that is only logical given that the only reason DLC packs even exist in this day and age is to extend replay value for some extra dollars (which in turn is all about making game development as a whole financially a little bit more feasible).

The types of production issues he's talking about are also pretty generic, and the cuts happened a lot earlier than you're probably thinking. It's basically the same stuff that causes stuff to get cut out of every other game that ever has been or ever will be made.

AlStrong said:
Would a Spring release have been so terrible to finish what was started along with more time for polish :?: (Also considering how crowded the holidays usually are for games...)
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You answered your own question. And that's to say nothing of the fact that another few months is tantamount to spending that much more money while the economy gets that much worse. It's not as though people weren't aware that the f'ed up economy would have thrown sales of luxury items like games into a downward spiral, but that we were well beyond the point-of-no-return by the time the worst of it all had transpired.

And they call the gamers cynics when they say this kind of thing? ;)
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Yes, well, when the misunderstanding rate approaches 100% and people extend things towards conspiracies and dark shady dealings between wealthy fat cats wearing wily grins on their faces while reciting Satanic hymns... well, that's where it becomes a well-founded admonition. Most of the cynicism comes not because people are necessarily skeptical, but because they're unwilling to realize that things aren't simple... They see a host of problems on the surface, but nothing deeper than that, and rather than attribute a variety of problematic results to a variety of causes which have various causes of their own (something that is far too complicated for their feeble minds), they look for one point of blame from which to extrapolate everything. And it is from this kind mindlessness that the defecations of bulls spew out in massive quantities.
 
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