Thinking the total view: Consoles as cheap PC's

[sonyps35]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103670

This, plus Bill Gates insistence (failed, for now) on trying to get a full version of windows onto X360 as detailed in Dean Takahashi's new book, has got me thinking on this topic.

What are advantages to true consoles as PC's?

The big disadvantage is, a controller does not work for PC work.

But what if you stick it under your desk, and plug a USB keyboard in?

X360 suddenly makes a pretty damn nifty, cheap, and powerful PC. The specs on a 399 360 toaste a similarly priced PC, at least from a graphic perspective.

And really, 99% of what the average consumer does with a PC today is websurfing. Doesn't take huge specs to do this.

Maybe you build in the few basic hardcoded apps everybody needs onto the HDD. Web browser, word processor, etc.

What does this really gain you? I'm not sure, but possibly some market share. Problem is, a 360 tied down as a PC, say in a family household, suddenly is much harder for say the teenage boy to game on.

I'm just using the 360 as example here. Same goes for PS3.

The detachable HDD's make things upgradeable too.

I suppose it would be really best for Sony, because if you build the websurfer in, people suddenly dont need a windows PC.

I dont know, it's all about more options..

However, you can usually get a cheap PC nowdays for $399 or less. It wont game as well but it might have better specs in some other areas (bigger HDD?)

The other issue is, the specs on these consoles get left behind fast. Imagine the idea had been implemented on Xbox and PS2. You have 64 and 32 MB of RAM. Still, this would be enough for websurfing for sure, with much better visual capabilities than say integrated PC graphics. All for a price that even the cheapest PC's couldn't beat ($149/129). The point is though that in a few years the PS3/360's 512 of RAM will look similary pitiful compared to PC's of the time as Xbox and PS2 do now.

I guess it boils down to, is it worth building in basic PC functionality as an option to consoles?

And how do you make money? If it's not used for gaming? The box is at a loss, and presumably people wont be buying software for it.

 

[_xxx_]

Who will develop the drivers (and the much needed Window$ variant, otherwise noone will be interested in using it as a PC) for such a thing?

 

[McHuj]

IMO, it's useless to add all that functionality to a console. Media player, maybe? But trying to sell it as a full PC is not a good idea.

Email on a console is ok, web surfing maybe as well, but beyond that I don't see the point. If you (Sony) want to use the console as a PC replacement, you have to be able to provide a full software suite that all PC users use like MS office, the ability to hook up a multitude of devices like cameras, printers, scanners, etc. Who is going to provide all that? Good luck trying to convince Canon or HP and the rest of the peripheral industry that they need to support your OS/device as well.

Will you allow users to run their own software on it? Will you provide all the allowable software? Or will user created software be very crippled so that your device remians secure? How will you users be allowed to exchange data files?

There are many more equations to this puzzle, beyond the specs of the box. A PS2 or Xbox from a technical point of view could easily handle the simple tasks of a PC, but you need to provide the software infrastructure and user interafce beyond that.

 

[rounin]

I would probably be one of the people who will use the PS3 as a replacement for many of the functions of a desktop PC.

If the PS3 Linux follows through, would something like the Linux Standard Base be of any help in ensuring a sufficient supply of software for the platform?

 

[Arwin]

If the PS3 did Linux, it could work pretty well with OpenOffice and such, and a nice desktop. Especially the 1920x1080p resolution wouldn't hurt it at all. This would, I think, hurt the 360 a little bit (720p), but then again if you install XP on it, that would make it pretty decent. Vista should just about run too.

It would take a while for both to run efficiently with the multi-cores, but that should work out quick enough.

Obviously both consoles win a lot by being able to run applications outside of the OS layer, but with the Cell you should be able to just as easily load Linux as load a game, which could be a great advantage - your game will never interfere with your OS environment and vice versa, greatly reducing the stress on your computer.

With the PS3 also having the USB 2.0x4, Bluetooth, Blu-Ray ROM, Wifi, HDD, HDMI, etc., I would certainly give it a serious try.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I was pointed to OOo and d'loaded it. The WP looks okay, but by all accounts the DBase is shafted. It certainly isn't a case of loading in my Access Database and doing a mailmerge without anyn hitches...so it's still not a robust replacement for Office. For simple stuff it'll be okay, but is it really advanced enough to handle club documents, school homework, and all the things people do? The average home user doesn't use a huge variety of functions, but what they do use needs to be robust. I don't have very much experience at all of OOo to comment on whether I think it'll work for the home use.

And also the slight differences from MS Office do get in the way. I think to myself 'why use OO Writer when I already bought Word and know exactly how to use it?' For me, getting away from buggy PCs is the only reason to migrate to a different platform. If PS3 does that, I'm there. If it has the same sorts of problems (obviously not hardware issues, but OS or software could still be a PITA) then better the devil I know. I already know Word2000 can't do a Page Count field properly, and I can work around it. I don't really want to expose myself to a whole load of different problems from an alternative if the overall experience is no better - it has to be a first class solution to my needs to tempt me away. And believe I really want to be tempted away! I long for a decent computer platform once again.

 

[Arwin]

Heh, yeah that page field ... :S

However, mail merge applications and such is exactly what I code. These days I'm totally into Xml stuff, both low-level and high level. So if the only thing missing were decent mail merge, I'd code one myself.

 

[Guden Oden]

The biggest stumbling block against the 360 becoming a PC running windows is its PowerPC main CPU, and the fact most application software today is so sloppily written it requires dozens of megabytes of RAM and a rather powerful processor to accomplish that which took much less computing resources in the past.

Heck, just look at pretty much any thread on the "new" ATI control panel, alternating complaints about it being slow and bloated with counterclaims that 40+ MB RAM useage is nothing to be concerned with when people have 1GB+ in their systems...

The CPU cores in 360 (and Cell) are CLOCKED fast, but they're not particulary fast in real life, on randomly picked program code. To be able to force them to run fast, programs must be hand tailored to them, and frankly I don't see this happening. At the very least they need to be recompiled to even run at all on the 360 hardware, which has pretty much zero in common with a PC, other than perhaps some north/southbridge hardware registers (but even that could be completely custom). Its saving grace could be it has three slow-performing cores that could run three programs slowly simultaneously, but with only 1MB of L2 inbetween them they'll be thrashing each others' cache constantly on today's poorly optimized code...

Main problem with PS3 is its low main RAM capacity (only half of 360), and the gimped performance on unoptimized code. I suppose it could allocate VRAM for program code too, or use VRAM as a fast ramdrive, but as it is, 256MB doesn't go all that far today. See discussion about program bloat above. Recompilation won't be as big an issue for any possible alternate computer use on PS3 if it runs Linux, as much of the stuff available for linux already is open source. Question is, how hard will it be for joe schmoe to recompile/install a program and get it to run properly on PS3... Probably way beyond most peoples' capacity. Maybe Sony or a 2nd/3rd party will offer a service with ready-made precompiled packages people can download for a fee or free. Depends on how open Sony's business model will be for PS3, and if it'll have Linux capability at all. Maybe they'll quietly drop that aspect despite previous announcements.

 

[Blazkowicz]

windows NT is very portable by nature, there were versions for i386, PPC, MIPS, Itanic, AMD64 and even an internal 64bit version of windows 2000 for Alpha processors.
but off course non x86 versions were a failure, no software or drivers for these platforms. I'd rather expect Windows CE on X360, and a quite closed platform.

as for PS2 and xbox I don't believe they're good enough for modern browsing on lots of sites. firefox may have its little leak problems but I believe it rightfully uses its 150MB or more when I have lots of tabs open with high graphics and stuff usage.

linux on PS3, now we'll see how it will be. might be aimed at geeks only. provides at least potential support of third party hardware with open source drivers. some problems may arise, such as the only open source way to play DVD is to break CSS. (so, what about Bluray when the protection is broken).

 

[SPM]

windows NT is very portable by nature, there were versions for i386, PPC, MIPS, Itanic, AMD64 and even an internal 64bit version of windows 2000 for Alpha processors.
but off course non x86 versions were a failure, no software or drivers for these platforms. I'd rather expect Windows CE on X360, and a quite closed platform.

as for PS2 and xbox I don't believe they're good enough for modern browsing on lots of sites. firefox may have its little leak problems but I believe it rightfully uses its 150MB or more when I have lots of tabs open with high graphics and stuff usage.

linux on PS3, now we'll see how it will be. might be aimed at geeks only. provides at least potential support of third party hardware with open source drivers. some problems may arise, such as the only open source way to play DVD is to break CSS. (so, what about Bluray when the protection is broken).

Windows on non-ix86 has been a miserable failure - even on servers where it would run a limited range of applications (and these were available). All non-ix86 Windows versions have been suspended including the latest Itanium version of Windows dataserver launched with much fanfare and expense. On the other hand Linux has been a roaring success on all these platforms - Itanium has been saved by Linux, and Itanium is still selling reasonably in the middle to high end SMP/NUMA server box market.

Linux is ready for the desktop, but efforts to market it are half hearted. Despite all the hype, the real money is in servers and that is what the Linux community is concentrating. I believe the Linux desktop is going to do a Firefox when the time is ready. Remember how Mozilla took so long to develop, how is was slow, bloated etc. then when things were ready everything was pulled togeher and wham - out of nowhere appeared Firefox - fast, sleek, slick features etc. Linux will do the same thing - all the code is ready, all that is required is for someone to add the polish.

As for hardware drivers, this is the major drawback for any alternative OS, and is the main thing apart from exclusive OEM bundling agreements with Microsoft that is holding Linux back. On the PS3 however this is not a problem. The PS3 is a closed appliance - you can't plug in add-on cards into the PS3, and Sony will supply the drivers for the built-in PS3 hardware and expansion (eg, Hard drive, eye toy etc.). As far as printers, scanners, cameras etc. are concerned, most support Linux, but a few don't, and you have to be careful to check compatibility before buying. This and not the incompatibility of a few devices itself is the major headache with Linux. The PS3 is not likely to have as many peripherals plugged in as a PC, and if anyone is nervous, Sony can easily overcome this by publishing an approved peripheral list or selling it's own badged peripherals. With tens of millions of PS3s sold every year, there will be an incentive for hardware manufacturers that don't already do so, to support Linux or lose out on a large number of sales.

 

[PeterT]

Question is, how hard will it be for joe schmoe to recompile/install a program and get it to run properly on PS3... Probably way beyond most peoples' capacity.

If they actually let you run Linux out of the box (I'm still quite sceptical) then this should not be a problem at all. Even on PCs with the myriad of different hardware/software configurations out there most people using Linux on the desktop don't compile the programs they use. Instead, they download binaries (mostly via some packet manager provided by their distribution, which also takes care of installation). For a closed hardware/somewhat closed software platform like PS3, providing binaries will be even easier. If Sony allows you to run them, that is. </disgruntled PSP homebrewer mode>

 

[bobthebub]

my 2p on a possible sony long term strategy.

Look at the various markets.

Consoles.
Sony release PS3 late 2006, a bit better than 360 for gaming and some nice additions, blu-ray, Web Browser touch pricey (I personally suspect they are trying to leverage the brand and not losing (much) money on it) will do quite well - but probably not dominate like PS2

Mac-Mini Market,
Might take till 2007, but take a PS3, Linux starting to come together, web, email, instant messenger, openoffice, starting to get decent media centre capabilities and it plays games a damn sight better than a mac, 1080p essential now cos you want to run this on a fairly hi-res monitor in a study/den.

Geek Market,
Create a new line of Cell workstations, Perhaps 2008/9, release in a new more PC-like form factor, throw in dual (faster) cells, latest GPU - still probably plays PS3 games though, Linux software support growing, starts to sell into scientific market.

Might take a couple of revisions but these things are now essentially dev kits for PS4.

Next Next Gen,
2012 PS4 comes out, all the above continuing to eat into windows bite at a time (only needs to be 5-10% of market to hit MS), PSLinux now quite well established, good software base.

Enterprise market,
Sony says, hey we have a cheap/powerful platform with growing software support that we will support for the next 10+ years almost unchanged, lets repackage a bit, sell as thin clients for corporates.

Big organisation has a look, hmm, been looking for something simple cheap and supportable over a long period without being forced into constant windows upgrades,

Tell you what Sony, cut the price, license IBM to make them as well so I can dual source, gimme 20,000 for my call centres and i'll instantly save every penny of the deployment costs when MS finds out and throws me a licensing deal on the other 100,000 pc's I have in the hope I won't migrate them to Linux as well.

Everyone else
Will still buy Windows PC's/Macs, but MS struggling to grow - can't charge the same as they used to for a copy of windows, fighting the onslaught of those guys that run the last windows apps they depend on under Sony PSVirtual86(tm).

Then things might get interesting.


---

Of course it wouldn't happen like that, MS?Apple won't stand still and Sony aren't renowned for being able to pull this sort of thing off, but it's definitely keeping MS awake at night.

 

[Powderkeg]

That won't happen for one simple reason.

PC's success isn't just due to Microsoft, it's due to the open architecture of PC hardware, allowing just about anyone to make PC parts or complete systems. Closed formats won't be as successful simply because they don't offer the selection and price competition that PC's provide.

 

[bobthebub]

Tell that to Apple, I don't expect Cell to replace Wintel but I think the market is changing and there is room for more players, things will fragment, if you want an all-purpose PC, buy a PC. If you want something as simple/reliable and cheap as a phone to do basic web/media/office buy an appliance to do that. How many PC's can you buy today that are cheaper than a PS2 - how will that look if in 10 years people still want to do basically the same things as they do today.

Heck, so what if I still have to buy a PC to do the heavy lifting, I have 4 PC's today - main one, media centre attached to TV, laptop and a kind of server one, I only need to be able to replace one with a console and I am biting into the market.

The whole PC paradigm depends on new and exciting uses coming out every year, there are a lot of consumers and corporates that don't need/want that and are sick of constant upgrades, driver hassles and instant obsolescence.

edit: my main point really is that we need price competition on the o/s as well as the hardware - have you seen the reports that Vista Ultimate will be $450?, a future as described above would be good for competition

 

[kyleb]

Especially the 1920x1080p resolution wouldn't hurt it at all. This would, I think, hurt the 360 a little bit (720p)

Remember the 360 can output 1080i, which is 1920x1080 as well. The only difference being 1080i sends the frames as 60 interlaced fields a second that must be combined to creat 30 progresive frames; where as 1080p is 60 full frames, but that isn't rightly an issue for most desktop functionality.

 

[Sis]

Tell that to Apple,

Apple has sat in the ~5% market share for years. The success of the iPod has given them a halo effect with regards to the mac mini and iMac, but they still aren't seeing significant growth in that arena.

I also find it ironic that you mention Apple in defense of the point, since they've been charging what, US$100, for their service packs? Looking to them for price competetiveness is not the best example. Linux sits on the other end of the spectrum, of course.

 

[bobthebub]

You are right, apple are not the poster child for how to steal market share from MS, but they do have a solid and (my point falls here as I can't pull up decent links to substantiate this) seemingly increasing business based on quality product that does what it says on the tin and doesn't have access to the windows software library.

Sony have an opportunity to leverage the massive cost benefit of volume console production with a cheap O/S and get the some of the best of both worlds, semi closed environment and nothing to stop them licensing at the right time as I alluded to above - corporates like to buy off IBM who also have rights to make Cells and recently sold their PC business to lenovo so wouldn't be competing with themselves.

 

[Powderkeg]

Tell that to Apple,

I'm pretty sure Apple is well aware that they aren't even remotely close to PC's in market penetration of the consumer-level computers.

 

[Acert93]

The CPU cores in 360 (and Cell) are CLOCKED fast, but they're not particulary fast in real life, on randomly picked program code.

Speed is relative. Most casual desktop apps (browser, email client, word processor, spreadsheet editor, text/html editor, etc) are unintensive. I ran Office 2000 on a PII 233MHz with 64MB of memory for a long while with no issues. I know quite a few small businesses that are running 1GHz or slower PCs with 256MB of memory and do fine.

Where these older systems choke would be stuff like video editing and games. The cosoles got the games taken care of, so that leaves desktop intensive applications out in the cold. Seeing as the a majority of PC time is spent browsing, emailing, and gaming I am sure there is a decent marketshare that would not mind the loss. Of course the big issue is software support and legacy. Personally I have no desire to dump thousands of dollars of software to switch platforms--which may not have the software I use to begin with.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Speed is relative. Most casual desktop apps (browser, email client, word processor, spreadsheet editor, text/html editor, etc) are unintensive. I ran Office 2000 on a PII 233MHz with 64MB of memory for a long while with no issues. I know quite a few small businesses that are running 1GHz or slower PCs with 256MB of memory and do fine.

This is very true I was using a PIII 800 with 512MB RAM for all Officey functions including photo editing and raytracing. I only upgraded to speed up the more intensive tasks, but the machine was wonderfully servicable. And for things like photo editing and video editing, PS3 and possibly XB360 should be better than most PCs anyway due to faster memory access. Given the closed hardware, specialist software could pull the GPU's into play too.

It would be interesting to find a survey that records reasons why people buy a new or upgrade their computers. Is it to run Office and The Internet faster, or to run games better. Only if the uses are ones the conosles couldn't handle effectively would there be a problem in acceptance for these reasons.