The Power of ID?

[Doomtrooper]

ID has proven this theory wrong many times now, and I've posted this before... was a Voodoo 1, Riva 128, Xpert 98 powerful enough to run Quake 2 ?? Quake 2 really pushed the bar at the time which of course 3DFX answered with the SLI Voodoo 2, TNT etc...
ID has consistently made engines that have 'forced' upgrades...even Quake 3 with Gore Effects killed the Voodoo 3's.
If a game has a 'recognized name' for quality..and there isn't alot of these..but off the top of my head..

1)Diablo
2)Warcraft
3)Quake
4)Unreal
5)Doom
6)Serious Sam

These games sold alot and are popular, these are the titles that people would consider upgrading to play. As I mentioned before my close friend who manages a local Electronics Boutique counts on titles like Quake 3 at the time, as EB's hardware sales go through the roof with people upgrading their video cards to play these established name games..

 

[alexsok]

Anyway, it will be exceedingly interesting to compare the upcoming Unreal engine to the DOOM3 engine early next year, as both engines were meant to target the original GeForce as the baseline.

The new UT engine offers some twist which ATM I don't think the ID engine supports as well (again I have lots of details on the UT engine but not much on the Doom3). For example the integration of the Karma Physics engine should offer a ton of things you can do. I know you have all seen the rag doll effects but Karma can and is applied to many other things. How about lights. When you shot a light the model and the light it self will move according to your force/direction of impact. You can set up Karma up to move other objects as well (fans, doors, ect). Also they have Karma on vehicle code. You have friction from the wheels, proper velocity, ect Image a mod where you hook up a player behind a buggy and drive them over a rocky road where the player is trying to grab pickups on the way. Or you can use Karma to throw his body into a goal. Or you can use it for human bowling Although Karma alone is not earth shaking it does open up a wealth of possibilities for us mod makers...oh the evil twisted things I could do...mwaahhaaaahhaaa The UT engine also will support even bigger open areas. Q3 engine was always poor on this. And the gang over at Epic have improved on the handling of large out door areas. The UT engine now supports world spaces that are x4 bigger than the current engine. The also have improved on the movie/demo making aspects of the new UT engine. The tools have improved and that makes it for an even easier process for the mod teams. Tim said that the DOOM 3 will probably have better effects for IQ (like bump mapping for one example) but he has already started working on the next one......


Once again I think DOOM3 will have some amazing IQ and be very fun. But I think that UT2003 has the chance to be more popular with the public just for all of the options it opens up.

Epic licensed the physic engine from Havoc, while id developed their own engine and from the interviews and demonstration I've seen of this physic engine, I can safely say that it ROCKS!!!!

 

[GetStuff]

Hmm I wonder if Doom3 will really become as common a benchmark as Quake3 did... Since it may turn out to be much more CPU limited then Quake3 was/is. Unless Prescott/Hammer turn out to be beasts.

 

[KimB]

Actually, from what I've been reading, the shadows are going to make it much more GPU limited than the previous engines (The same goes for the new Unreal engine...though they've also added a lot of CPU-intensive tasks to bring the CPU requirements up as well), with approximately 2-3 passes over the entire scene per light source.

Just based on the fact that games cannot easily scale how much processing needs to be done on the CPU, good engines will always try to not put too much pressure on the CPU.

Oh, and Hammer will be a beast in processing power, particularly for programs compiled for it I just hope that AMD has the foresight to include support for DDR400 and DDR II in the initial release...anything less would be a serious mistake.

 

[Colourless]

And Doom wont be compiled for Hammer. Carmack has certain objections to 64 bit ints and pointers. They will make the program size larger, cause the program to require more memory, memory bandwith and have to push more data to the stack on during function calls.

 

[KimB]

I don't really expect most software will be compiled for Hammer, at least not on the consumer side.

I'm mostly excited because I want to use one for some physics simulations, and all I need to get those compiled for the hammer is get an optimized compiler

Additionally, if AMD goes the way of DDRII or at least DDR400 with the Hammer, it may not be that big of an issue. Besides, you'd think that the Hammer would fully-support 32-bit types. I don't see why you'd need to completely switch over to 64-bit precision just because you're compiling for the Hammer.

 

[Xmas]

Just a side note: it's id, not ID or iD or whatever...

 

[jjayb]

When I watched the videos for doom 3 all I kept thinking was it would be perfect for the thief series. Apparently they're making thief 3 with the unreal engine. I've been anxiously awaiting Thief 3, but after seeing the Doom videos, I wouldn't mind if they stopped production and waited to use the Doom 3 engine. Man, creeping around in those shadows would be awesome.

 

[Ante P]

Additionally, if AMD goes the way of DDRII or at least DDR400 with the Hammer, it may not be that big of an issue.

Isn't it pretty much final that they will only support DDR333? (At least to begin with.)

 

[John Reynolds]

When I watched the videos for doom 3 all I kept thinking was it would be perfect for the thief series. Apparently they're making thief 3 with the unreal engine. I've been anxiously awaiting Thief 3, but after seeing the Doom videos, I wouldn't mind if they stopped production and waited to use the Doom 3 engine. Man, creeping around in those shadows would be awesome.

The Doom 3 engine would be great for the Deus Ex sequel, too. Oh, well, maybe Deus Ex 3 and Thief 4 will use it.

 

[Ilfirin]

Saying Thief3 and/or Deus Ex2 use the Unreal engine is, well, kinda wrong ;o

Yes they did license it, but they rewrote the entire rendering system from scratch to make use of >Doom tech (though art is a very different story). Whether or not you believe that is irrelevant.

The engine behind T3 and DX2 does dynamic per-pixel lighting (ala Normal map on all surfaces, aka dot3 bump mapping) and shadowing (via stencil shadow volumes obviously) across all surfaces, with specular of course and all that; which is everything Doom has, but whereas Doom rarely has more than one light acting on each pixel, T3/DX2 can have 10-20 (though the system requirements for T3/DX2 are quite a bit higher than Doom as well). Of course the artwork shown thus far, sucks IMO. The best tech in the world won't make bad artwork look good.

Their (T3/DX2) sound and AI systems both sound miles beyond anything out now, and beyond anything mentioned of other future games.

Those 2 games (T3/DX2) are certainly going to be interesting.. they sound like they have everything - best graphics, sound, ai, gameplay and story. And that's the part that gets me.. anything that sounds that good never turns out very good.

 

[Nagorak]

Those 2 games (T3/DX2) are certainly going to be interesting.. they sound like they have everything - best graphics, sound, ai, gameplay and story. And that's the part that gets me.. anything that sounds that good never turns out very good.

I guess you never played the original DX?

Although, I must admit I'm somewhat concerned with some of the "changes" they are making (less conspiracies, etc). But seriously, the original DX wasn't about graphics, it was about a great story. That's something id has never figured out... They make great engines but their actual games are mediocre at best.

Anyway, no one failure wouldn't put id out of business, but you're pretty nieve if you don't think they are constrained by fiscal considerations just like everybody else. If they went around with the attitude that you people seem to think they should take, that they can do whatever they want, they wouldn't last long. Don't think for a second that if a developer were considering whether to use the Doom3 engine, or whether to use the UT engine, the fact that the Doom3 would only run on GF3/R8500+ would push them over to the other side. Sales are what makes these places money, not pixel shaders.

ID has proven this theory wrong many times now, and I've posted this before... was a Voodoo 1, Riva 128, Xpert 98 powerful enough to run Quake 2 ?? Quake 2 really pushed the bar at the time which of course 3DFX answered with the SLI Voodoo 2, TNT etc...
ID has consistently made engines that have 'forced' upgrades...even Quake 3 with Gore Effects killed the Voodoo 3's.
If a game has a 'recognized name' for quality..and there isn't alot of these..but off the top of my head..

By the way this totally refutes your point (and the point of everyone saying how "id can do whatever they want"). Quake2 not only ran on a Voodoo1, it even had software rendering. Don't try to revise history, id has always had good support for the low end, because that's what they and other developers want. Quake 3 ran on a TNT2. People may "upgrade" to play these games, but they can play them on lesser systems. And I'm willing to bet that more people don't upgrade to play a game than do. For a lot of people computers are just not that important.

 

[Ilfirin]

I guess you never played the original DX?

Umm, yes I have, many times. It is my 2nd favorite game of all time (next to Thief), by a very large margin.

Although, I must admit I'm somewhat concerned with some of the "changes" they are making (less conspiracies, etc). But seriously, the original DX wasn't about graphics, it was about a great story.

Yes, and the new one seems to have great everything. In the past whenever anyone (including myself) sees something as having great everything they are usually wrong.

That's something id has never figured out... They make great engines but their actual games are mediocre at best.

That is a path I am not going to go down.

but you're pretty nieve if you don't think they are constrained by fiscal considerations just like everybody else.

I assume this comment is for the original topic of this thread (which was a very pointless topic IMO ;o).

 

[Doomtrooper]

By the way this totally refutes your point (and the point of everyone saying how "id can do whatever they want"). Quake2 not only ran on a Voodoo1, it even had software rendering. Don't try to revise history, id has always had good support for the low end, because that's what they and other developers want. Quake 3 ran on a TNT2. People may "upgrade" to play these games, but they can play them on lesser systems. And I'm willing to bet that more people don't upgrade to play a game than do. For a lot of people computers are just not that important.

Quake 3 had support for the low end ?? Hardly...and yes those early engines came with software renders, Unreal did too...this was also when my company was in its prime and 3D acceleration was just starting to get attention...the excuse for software now is moot.
I intenionally ran two demo computers in the display room with Quake 2 running on a Voodoo 2 and the other running on a S3 Trio in software...lets just say people didn't take too long to make up their mind.
I'm willing to bet you are wrong, as the most popular request we had when I ran my company was I need better 3Dmarks or I want to run Quake 2/Unreal in 3D mode

 

[jjayb]

Ilfirin, where are you getting all of this info on thief 3 and dx2? Is there a website I missed? Please give me a link so I can have something to drool over for a while.

 

[Ichneumon]

Ilfirin, where are you getting all of this info on thief 3 and dx2? Is there a website I missed? Please give me a link so I can have something to drool over for a while.

I'll second that motion... Apparantly I've fallen behind follwing DX2 and Thief3 infos. Theif1 (and 2 i suppose, but only because it was more of the same) and Deus Ex are two of my all time favorite games ever, with SystemShock2 coming in a close third (the great games to me are all about Atmosphere (which is comprised of Many things) and Story, with gameplay which fits both.). Far and above anything else coming out (hopefully) this year Thief3 and Dx2 are my most anticipated 2 titles.

I'd love to see any links u have on more info about their status!

 

[Colourless]

Quake 3 ran on a Voodoo 1. Not greatly well, but if you ran the game in the fastest settings, No shaders, vertex lighing, 512x384, and picmip 2 textures, it was 'somewhat' playable.

 

[jjayb]

"We interrupt this topic for a brief commercial announcement"

Ichneumon, you just named my 3 favorite games. With system shock 2 and thief being the top 2. Coincidentally I just reinstalled system shock 2 last night. The atmosphere and tension in those games are incredible.(although I didn't find deus ex to be as tension filled as the others) Graphics weren't the best, but the atmosphere more than made up for it. Definitely more gripping than the usual "run and gun" type of game. I really wish more developers would follow suit with these types of games.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

 

[elimc]

I just hope that AMD has the foresight to include support for DDR400 and DDR II in the initial release...anything less would be a serious mistake.

Unfortunately, DDRII won't be ramping in mass quantities until 2004. When Hammer ships, it will probably be with DDR333 support. If you want to upgrade to DDRII when it comes out, you will need to buy a new processor and a new motherboard.

 

[Ilfirin]

Ilfirin, where are you getting all of this info on thief 3 and dx2? Is there a website I missed? Please give me a link so I can have something to drool over for a while.

DX2:
http://www.bgn.be/specials.php?specialId=50
http://www.xboxsolution.com/article.php?sid=169
http://www.gaminghorizon.com/features/dx2interview.php
http://xbox.ign.com/articles/360/360051p1.html
http://www.gamers.com/game/1160651
http://www.gaming-age.com/cgi-bin/event/news.pl?y=2002&event=e3&nid=26-145.db
http://www.deusex2.com
http://www.computerandvideogames.co...ndvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=48896
http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=6914
http://www.elecplay.com/preview.html?article=9064
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/previews/0,10869,2839140,00.html
http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/deusex2.phtml
http://www.ferrago.co.uk/story.asp?id=95
http://www.ionstorm.com/news/informant/

There are also 2-3 movies floating around, and I missed about half the sites/interviews. Please note that most of the content in the screenshots were done prior to the new rendering system going live. Presumably, most of that will be redone (going to this style tech changes the way content is created pretty drastically, especially in the area of geometry/textures.. ala 'renderbump'ing everything).

T3 (under media blackout, note that the games are sharing an incredible amount of code in AI, Sound, Graphics.. almost anything that isn't specific to the 2 different game styles. Most of which was mentioned in the above DX2 articles holds true for Thief3):
http://www.thief-thecircle.com/t3/ (scroll down a little bit)

Most of what information I gave before can be found in the above articles, some (hopefully not too much) is from e-mail correspondences.

And if you need another forum to waste your time at, ISA's went live yesturday - http://www.ionstorm.com/forum/