The Pitfalls of Motion Control *Spin-Off

[DemoCoder]

Another example of why motion control with current MEMS units suck. I've had the same issue with every single Wii game I've tried. Imprecision, failure rate with gestures of about 10%, lag, and a general feeling that the game would be better with analog controls.

Looks like Sony wasted their time putting gimmicky motion control in the DS instead of better rumble or some other innovation.

Mod:
This has been moved from the Lair thread, since it is indeed a bit off topic. Feel free to discuss anything wrong with motion control per se on any system: E.g. Lag, bad motion detection leading to wrong character actions, etc.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

This thread has changed from a Lair thread to a control thread, and I think it melds nicely with the 360 thread in the other forum about attempting to define gamers.

However you define gamers, I think that certain people (like Democoder, myself, and others) feel that having a 5%-20% failure rate built into the controller is unacceptable.

It's not a timing issue or something that can be practiced and perfected, it's an inherent flaw (IMO) in the input device.

Other people, let's call them casuals who don't really know what to expect or have great familiarity with video games and demand precision, are more willing to accept motion controls and those inherent flaws.

I don't believe that video games should have a possible failure rate built into them. The purpose of play video games, for me, is to get better at the game in order to win. Win against the game, win against others, etc..

If my ability to win is hampered by the control device, through no fault of my own, and without hope for improvement over this condition, then my satisfaction in the experience will drop tremendously.

I think most 'hardcore' gamers feel this way (not that I consider myself a hardcore gamer, btw.. just that this is one aspect where I would align myself in that category.. like Shifty's proposed Ven diagrams). I think most casual gamers, on the other hand, couldn't care less.

So what if you can't do a 180 100% of the time, every time, even if you spent the rest of your life practicing? Who cares? You can do it 80% of the time, that's enough.

 

[cthellis42]

"You gotta start somewhere."

I'll say that right now, while we're going through growth spurts with it, I don't want to be FORCED to use a method that has technical limitations like that to deal with, but personally I'd much rather we start having more to work with.

Using the motion controls can take some getting used to and not be as precise as other methods, but then... some people prefer using a frickin' gamepad to play FPS'es. Current motion controls are WAYYYY better than that.

 

[Natoma]

Another example of why motion control with current MEMS units suck. I've had the same issue with every single Wii game I've tried. Imprecision, failure rate with gestures of about 10%, lag, and a general feeling that the game would be better with analog controls.

Looks like Sony wasted their time putting gimmicky motion control in the DS instead of better rumble or some other innovation.

Mod:
This has been moved from the Lair thread, since it is indeed a bit off topic. Feel free to discuss anything wrong with motion control per se on any system: E.g. Lag, bad motion detection leading to wrong character actions, etc.

Well I can't speak for sony, but you yourself stated that the Wii controlled better when you took it to your friend's house and played it on his DLP TV. Try resolving the issue with your high-lumen projection system, as has been discussed before, before knocking motion control in its current state. You might change your tune.

Given your own anecdotal experience, it seems that the Wii sensor bar doesn't respond as well under projection systems and might have to be calibrated differently, or placed in a different spot.

 

[Carl B]

I've not had the best experience with motion controls on the Wii outside of WiiSports, but my brother raves about the controls in MP3, so I think a lot of it is implementation-related. He would definitely rank it above keyboard/mouse at the moment, and he's as large a PC gamer as any there is. On the PS3 the 'simple' games that have made use of the motion controls I have been fond of, and for folk that aren't as adept with regular controls I find it suits them better for games like Motorstorm, but for most titles out thus far I still opt for the analog stick controls.

 

[fearsomepirate]

New technology always goes through an evolution, as do gamers. The gamepad is much, much more highly evolved than motion control, as is the software around it. Not only are developers new to this, but gamers are, too. My friend's wife (not much of a gamer) plays the shape-drawing minigame like a pro. He can't do it to save his life. Remember, not everyone acclimated instantaneously to Mario 64 or Halo.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Motion controls

Another example of why motion control with current MEMS units suck. I've had the same issue with every single Wii game I've tried. Imprecision, failure rate with gestures of about 10%, lag, and a general feeling that the game would be better with analog controls.[/b]

Motion control is like analog control but you must learn to use it smoothly. Most people jerk motion control but that will not work. It is like jerking analog stick. People who are used to analog stick are use to being gentle while beginners will jerk it. Same with motion control. I have a Wii and it is fantastic. Best console for me until I buy a 1080P TV/projector.

 

[V3]

Well I can't speak for sony, but you yourself stated that the Wii controlled better when you took it to your friend's house and played it on his DLP TV. Try resolving the issue with your high-lumen projection system, as has been discussed before, before knocking motion control in its current state. You might change your tune.

Given your own anecdotal experience, it seems that the Wii sensor bar doesn't respond as well under projection systems and might have to be calibrated differently, or placed in a different spot.

The sensor bar is only for the pointer, the motion sensing doesn't need the sensor bar.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I've not had the best experience with motion controls on the Wii outside of WiiSports, but my brother raves about the controls in MP3, so I think a lot of it is implementation-related. He would definitely rank it above keyboard/mouse at the moment, and he's as large a PC gamer as any there is. On the PS3 the 'simple' games that have made use of the motion controls I have been fond of, and for folk that aren't as adept with regular controls I find it suits them better for games like Motorstorm, but for most titles out thus far I still opt for the analog stick controls.

For pure aiming accuracy, I would rate it above the gamepad, but below the mouse and keyboard. There are some other things the mouse and keyboard can't do though.

I think the accuracy is pretty good. It's not 100%, but I'm not sure if motion detection ever could be. Still, I think it is good enough for Nintendo and Sony to have brought it to market. It does open new avenues for gameplay. I expect improvements whenever the Wii2 and PS4 are out.

 

[Cryect]

The sensor bar is only for the pointer, the motion sensing doesn't need the sensor bar.

Thats not completely true, for 1:1 motion control it needs a reference point which is why for all the gestures in Metroid Prime 3 it requires you keep the wiimote pointing at the sensor bar.

 

[Rainbow Man]

why motion control with current MEMS units suck. I've had the same issue with every single Wii game I've tried. Imprecision, failure rate with gestures of about 10%, lag

Have you tried rubadub or flow on the PS3?

Imprecision isn't exactly what I'd apply to the motiopn detection in those games.

Actually it's very accurate and precise. Even tiny tilts of the controller is accurately sand precisely represented by the creature controlled on your screen.

So it's not neccessarily faults with the MEMS device itself you're seeing.

It could be the wiimote's implementation of it or the way Wii software interprets it.

Or maybe you're just not compatible with motion controlled games. Just as I instinctively detest almost any sports game ever invented.

Peace.

 

[patsu]

Another example of why motion control with current MEMS units suck. I've had the same issue with every single Wii game I've tried. Imprecision, failure rate with gestures of about 10%, lag, and a general feeling that the game would be better with analog controls.

I did not follow the Wii-mini review thread as much as I wanted to. Do you think this is a
* a broken controller scenario
* a case-by-case game design issue
* a control scheme implementation problem
* a learning/acceptance challenge, or
* a flawed idea altogether ?

Looks like Sony wasted their time putting gimmicky motion control in the DS instead of better rumble or some other innovation.

As I mentioned in the Lair thread, I feel that _more_ can be invested in this area. They have a reasonably good start with flOw, Folksoul, the rub-a-dub, Warhawk and even Lair.

I feel that PSN navigation and web browsing can be enhanced with direct manipulation (via SIXAXIS).

Software-wise, I have mentioned repeatedly that there should be a sensitivity adjuster and self-diagnose for SIXAXIS in XMB.

Hardware-wise, I hope Sony or a 3rd party has a newer design:

Ability to break the controller into 2 halves, perhaps attached by a magnet like MacBook's power cable. Sometimes, it's just more convenient/natural to use 1 hand to control SIXAXIS (e.g., point and click/shoot, drumming, sword fighting).

Tilting/turning SIXAXIS using 2 hands may be unwieldy to some people because their arms are too locked up during gaming (Their entire body leans to one side or the other). Freeing up the 2 hands to move independently may help. It's just a gut feel, so I could be wrong here.

If it works well, I don't mind paying more for an optional controller like this.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Ideas

I did not follow the Wii-mini review thread as much as I wanted to. Do you think this is a
* a broken controller scenario
* a case-by-case game design issue
* a control scheme implementation problem
* a learning challenges, or
* a flawed idea altogether ?



As I mentioned in the Lair thread, I feel that _more_ can be invested in this area. They have a reasonably good start with flOw, Folksoul, the rub-a-dub, Warhawk and even Lair.

I feel that PSN navigation and web browsing can be enhanced with direct manipulation (via SIXAXIS).

Software-wise, I have mentioned repeatedly that there should be a sensitivity adjuster and self-diagnose for SIXAXIS in XMB.

Hardware-wise, I hope Sony or a 3rd party has a newer design:

Ability to break the controller into 2 halves, perhaps attached by a magnet like MacBook's power cable. Sometimes, it's just more convenient/natural to use 1 hand to control SIXAXIS (e.g., point and click/shoot, drumming, sword fighting).

Tilting/turning SIXAXIS using 2 hands may be unwieldy to some people because their arms are too locked up during gaming (Their entire body leans to one side or the other). Freeing up the 2 hands to move independently may help. It's just a gut feel, so I could be wrong here.

If it works well, I don't mind paying more for an optional controller like this.

You have many great ideas!

 

[AlphaWolf]

I honestly see little advantage of motion sensing at this time, its just different, not better. When they can get it as precise as mouse movement it should be pretty nice, but right now I think its always going to be somewhat gimmicky in its use.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I honestly see little advantage of motion sensing at this time

Nintendo sees the advantage as making gameplay more accessible for people who can't get over the mental hurdles necessary to correlate manipulating joysticks and pushing buttons with things like throwing a football or swinging a golf club. I think motion control does actually accomplish that, and I think Miyamoto was right about the modern controller being intimidating to quite a few people.

 

[Jaeyden]

It seems to me that the motion control schemes that get the least criticism/most praise tend to be the ones that are simple or rely on less axis for the player to contend with. For example:

Flow is full motion control but in a 2-d environment with one button to push.
Rub- a - dub is on a single plane that tilts with one simple movement to hop.
Folklore has one movement to learn... a yank up on the controller.
NGS....shake the controller to power up your attack.
Heavenly Sword....lean it left or right to guide a projectile.
COD3...mimic the movement of butting someone in the face with a gun.... See?

Now some that are more complex:
LAIR is full range of movement in a fully realized 3-d environment while also using multiple buttons and gestures. Unless you live in a cave, you know what people are saying about it.
Warhawk is the same but designed better, albeit still complicated to get used to. It's saving grace is that if you can't get the motion controls, you can use the analog. I'd be willing to bet that less than half of the players in Warhawk are using motion control to guide their planes.
Motorstorm is fun and challenging when using motion control. I think its a perfect example of how the more axis you actually have to contend with, the more difficult it becomes. Try motion control on the cars and trucks and then try it on the motorcycles and four wheelers. It seems harder on the smaller vehicles because you content with your pitch much more when driving them.

I think both Motorstorm and Warhawk would have suffered similar critical fates like LAIR had they mandated motion control.

How's that saying go? "Keep it simple, stupid.."

 

[AlphaWolf]

Nintendo sees the advantage as making gameplay more accessible for people who can't get over the mental hurdles necessary to correlate manipulating joysticks and pushing buttons with things like throwing a football or swinging a golf club. I think motion control does actually accomplish that, and I think Miyamoto was right about the modern controller being intimidating to quite a few people.

and while that may be an advantage in terms of drawing some people in, its going to be a disadvantage in terms of people who are used to pad controllers and are looking for the same only better with a new generation. My use of the wii is quite limited however it was a enough to tell me that I don't want one until its less than $100, because mostly it would just gather dust.

 

[patsu]

and while that may be an advantage in terms of drawing some people in, its going to be a disadvantage in terms of people who are used to pad controllers and are looking for the same only better with a new generation. My use of the wii is quite limited however it was a enough to tell me that I don't want one until its less than $100, because mostly it would just gather dust.

The current free-style motion sensing mechanism in SIXAXIS provides more freedom, more direct manipulation but less assistance to the player. It does not have to be that way.

If you want to look for a "better" motion control device...
Look no further than the mouse. It's assisted by the flat surface it slides on and is highly precise.

I am wondering how well table + "in-the-air" mouse devices work. And also whether SIXAXIS can glide on the table to act like a mouse (if it has the right shape).

 

[Crayon]

I actually suprised at how accurrate both the Wiimote and Sixaxis can be.

I think this is all about implementation. I'd go on with examples but I think Jaeyden hit the nail on the head.

 

[patsu]

I actually suprised at how accurrate both the Wiimote and Sixaxis can be.

Agree !

I think this is all about implementation. I'd go on with examples but I think Jaeyden hit the nail on the head.

I think it may be more than that. There are people who complained about stinky control even in something as simple as Super rub-a-dub. It could be individual controller hardware issues, or personal preferences.

I also enjoy flying in Lair better than guiding the worm in flOw (because of the sense of speed and the freedom). There are still room for studies and exploration.