The Official, Long Awaited, TV Shows Thread

[Sigfried1977]

Hmm

Spoiler

I agree that there were plenty of hints Dany would go postal like that & the argument that it was the -now dead- people around her that were holding those tendencies in check/the still living ones have betrayed her is pretty compelling.
I just didn't expect them to actually do it.

I'm mainly upset that there was no good excuse for the Scorpions suddenly becoming completely useless.

I still want to know WTF was up with the wildfire explosions.

Spoiler

Hints for going Portal at Cercie and her army maybe. But civilians? She's been depicted as rather unforgiving many times before, but she always had a at least reason. I was also rather displeased with the whole Varis thing. The spy master of spy masters. Smartest man in the realm. With a backup plan his backup plan. And then he had to die because Tyrion, a man he'd have most likely never told about his intentions due to his loyalty to Daenarys in the first place, told on him. What a shame. Also the whole Hound-Mountain showdown where the roof conveniently buried everyone but the major players first. Then there was the random showdown between Greyjoy and Jaime. You know, where his plot armor suddenly kicked in and had him survive 3 stabs through the lungs so he could cheesily die in the arms of his beloved. I actually don't mind the ineffective ballistas that much. That's probably what would have happened if you tried to to fire them at a flying target going at 200mph. The fact that they managed to hit a dragon with it during the last episode was a minor miracle. Also: the defending army was in front of the city walls? again? Anyone remember Ned Stark saying he could defend Winterfell with 500 men because of its walls? This show went from a masterpiece to a really well made 80s movie.

 

[Picao84]

Spoiler

Hints for going Portal at Cercie and her army maybe. But civilians? She's been depicted as rather unforgiving many times before, but she always had a at least reason. I was also rather displeased with the whole Varis thing. The spy master of spy masters. Smartest man in the realm. With a backup plan his backup plan. And then he had to die because Tyrion, a man he'd have most likely never told about his intentions due to his loyalty to Daenarys in the first place, told on him. What a shame. Also the whole Hound-Mountain showdown where the roof conveniently buried everyone but the major players first. Then there was the random showdown between Greyjoy and Jaime. You know, where his plot armor suddenly kicked in and had him survive 3 stabs through the lungs so he could cheesily die in the arms of his beloved. I actually don't mind the ineffective ballistas that much. That's probably what would have happened if you tried to to fire them at a flying target going at 200mph. The fact that they managed to hit a dragon with it during the last episode was a minor miracle. Also: the defending army was in front of the city walls? again? Anyone remember Ned Stark saying he could defend Winterfell with 500 men because of its walls? This show went from a masterpiece to a really well made 80s movie.

Spoiler

For the 100th time, her going postal at civilians has zero to do with Cersie. She is losing all her power, barely anyone supports her and she desperately wants the throne, it is all she has lived for, defined all her existence. The only card she had left to play was to instill fear in the hearts of everyone to earn respect through it.

It's funny, we all have seen Arthas on Warcraft very quickly go from a Paladin to a Butcher and Dark Knight for much much less. No one blinked an eye, it's considered an epic story and a Warcraft iconic moment, much better than we came after.

Now we have on a TV show a character that has way more motivations than Arthas ever did to do what she did and it's not realistic or doesn't fit the character... Except it does and there was plenty of warning about it! She said it herself, most likely more than once, that she was going back to claim want was rightfully hers and burn cities to the ground while doing it.

It honestly feels to me like we have all not been watching the same show all the time

 

[Sigfried1977]

Spoiler

For the 100th time, her going postal at civilians has zero to do with Cersie. She is losing all her power, barely anyone supports her and she desperately wants the throne, it is all she has lived for, defined all her existence. The only card she had left to play was to instill fear in the hearts of everyone to earn respect through it.

It's funny, we all have seen Arthas on Warcraft very quickly go from a Paladin to a Butcher and Dark Knight for much much less. No one blinked an eye, it's considered an epic story and a Warcraft iconic moment, much better than we came after.

Now we have on a TV show a character that has way more motivations than Arthas ever did to do what she did and it's not realistic or doesn't fit the character... Except it does and there was plenty of warning about it! She said it herself, most likely more than once, that she was going back to claim want was rightfully hers and burn cities to the ground while doing it.

It honestly feels to me like we have all not been watching the same show all the time

Spoiler

I never said it had anything to do with Cersie. I also have no idea about Warcraft lore, but the existence of even worse characterisations in extended universe video game fan fiction is hardly an excuse. As for her followers: the norsemen don't really like her just like they don't like anyone else from the outside. Their history with people sitting on the iron throne hasn't been a particularly happy one either, so the animosity towards her shouldn't come as a surprise. The people she freed on her journey did accept her though iirc. Regardless, the norsemen still followed her into battle and were perfectly willing to join in to the slaughter. And as we've heard many times over, the people of King's Landing don't really care what tyrant sits on the throne anyway, so why slaughter them and burn the city to the ground? Besides, the fact that she single-handedly dismantled the city's defenses in 5 minutes should've instilled plenty of fear in her future subjects. I think the show simply needed a couple more episodes to show her descent from a ruthless-but-fair ruler to a crazy Targaryen bitch. As a matter of fact, the whole thing probably needed another season period.

 

[Picao84]

Spoiler

I never said it had anything to do with Cersie. I also have no idea about Warcraft lore, but the existence of even worse characterisations in extended universe video game fan fiction is hardly an excuse. As for her followers: the norsemen don't really like her just like they don't like anyone else from the outside. Their history with people sitting on the iron throne hasn't been a particularly happy one either, so the animosity towards her shouldn't come as a surprise. The people she freed on her journey did accept her though iirc. Regardless, the norsemen still followed her into battle and were perfectly willing to join in to the slaughter. And as we've heard many times over, the people of King's Landing don't really care what tyrant sits on the throne anyway, so why slaughter them and burn the city to the ground? Besides, the fact that she single-handedly dismantled the city's defenses in 5 minutes should've instilled plenty of fear in her future subjects. I think the show simply needed a couple more episodes to show her descent from a ruthless-but-fair ruler to a crazy Targaryen bitch. As a matter of fact, the whole thing probably needed another season period.

Spoiler

No they didn't follow her, they followed Jon Snow. As for them getting involved in the carnage that followed, may I remind you that Westeros is not our 21st Century? It's a violent, cruel world where someone's life has very low value. Those man went to battle and expect one, not a quick surrender. Hell, even on our real 21st century you had soldiers doing despicable things in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, torturing, raping going way beyond whatever orders they had. And you expect what are essentially savages who treat women like dirt to refrain themselves from the fight they were promised?

How about you try and see things from the Westeros perspective and not our "spoiled" human rights world? In essence, I think that is the problem with loads of critics. They are viewing events from a nice cuddly coach perspective and not within the world where they are actually happening.

Regarding the defences, no you don't instill fear by destroying them, that's expected in a war. What instils fear is to be able to recklessly and indiscriminately kill people. Unpredictability is scary, predictability isn't.

 

[hoom]

Spoiler

the defending army was in front of the city walls? again? Anyone remember Ned Stark saying he could defend Winterfell with 500 men because of its walls?

Historically it seems to have actually been pretty common to try to fight outside walls in the first place even when pretty significantly outnumbered.
I don't entirely get it but I believe the point is to try to avoid being under siege at all cost, can fall back to the walls if it doesn't work but once the enemy gets a circumvallation in place you're in a lot of trouble.

Against a vastly outnumbering army of ravening undead I'd want to be on/behind as big a wall as possible.
But then knowing they already destroyed The Wall, I guess it doesn't make much difference

 

[Sigfried1977]

Spoiler

No they didn't follow her, they followed Jon Snow. As for them getting involved in the carnage that followed, may I remind you that Westeros is not our 21st Century? It's a violent, cruel world where someone's life has very low value. Those man went to battle and expect one, not a quick surrender. Hell, even on our real 21st century you had soldiers doing despicable things in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, torturing, raping going way beyond whatever orders they had. And you expect what are essentially savages who treat women like dirt to refrain themselves from the fight they were promised?

How about you try and see things from the Westeros perspective and not our "spoiled" human rights world? In essence, I think that is the problem with loads of critics. They are viewing events from a nice cuddly coach perspective and not within the world where they are actually happening.

Spoiler

They followed Jon Snow and took the city. They only started slaughtering civilians when the Dragon began his roasting runs. Apparently their allegiance to Jon Snow didn't run particularly deep then. Besides, historically speaking, scorched earth tactics were being used to cripple infrastructure and supply lines for the opposing armies. But the opposing armies were defeated in a matter of minutes here.

 

[BRiT]

So... Any thoughts on what sort of additional series they will have in the Game of Thrones cinematic universe?

 

[Sigfried1977]

They seem to have a giant hard-on for Arya. So maybe an Arya - Silent Assassin show?

 

[Picao84]

Spoiler

They followed Jon Snow and took the city. They only started slaughtering civilians when the Dragon began his roasting runs. Apparently their allegiance to Jon Snow didn't run particularly deep then. Besides, historically speaking, scorched earth tactics were being used to cripple infrastructure and supply lines for the opposing armies. But the opposing armies were defeated in a matter of minutes here.

Spoiler

Yes, that's all they needed to succumb to their savage instincts. Common, are you so naive that you don't know that a large part of us are anything but soft spoken savages? Again, even in real contemporary wars, despicable acts have been commited by the dozen, long after winning it. It's not for nothing that something called "War Crimes" do exist and are trialed you know?

Going back to World War II, there were plenty of cities burned to the ground that were not part of any supply line (Nagasaki and Hiroshima say hello). The objective? Beat the enemy into submission through fear, exactly what Daenerys was trying to accomplish. With or without Cersei, she would never command respect from the lord's of Westeros if they do not fear her. She is an outsider and daughter of the Mad King.

You might think of it as being evil or immoral, but it's very much plausible and fitting of a world like Westeros.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Spoiler

Comparing the battle for King's Landing to Hiroshima would be akin to the Americans surgically defeating the Japanese war machine without any civilian casualties and then dropping the nukes later for shits and giggles. You're also stealthily shifting the goal posts here. Nothing in this show so far suggested that Daenarys would lose it so utterly and so quickly. The fact that the norse soldiers completely abandoned their true king of the north the moment the bodies started burning was just the icing on the cake. Yeah, people do horrible things in war. But certainly not every last soldier in a conscripted medieval army (that wasn't a principal character of course) was a monster. The writers simply didn't develop this massive change in her character properly. If crazy Daeny would have been established, she could have simply ordered the men to kill every man, woman and child and they would've done it because they know how she treats deserters.

 

[Bludd]

lol maybe this should be spun out to a GoT season 8 thread

 

[Picao84]

Spoiler

Comparing the battle for King's Landing to Hiroshima would be akin to the Americans surgically defeating the Japanese war machine without any civilian casualties and then dropping the nukes later for shits and giggles. You're also stealthily shifting the goal posts here. Nothing in this show so far suggested that Daenarys would lose it so utterly and so quickly. The fact that the norse soldiers completely abandoned their true king of the north the moment the bodies started burning was just the icing on the cake. Yeah, people do horrible things in war. But certainly not every last soldier in a conscripted medieval army (that wasn't a principal character of course) was a monster. The writers simply didn't develop this massive change in her character properly. If crazy Daeny would have been established, she could have simply ordered the men to kill every man, woman and child and they would've done it because they know how she treats deserters.

Except that is EXACTLY what the Americans did!

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/

The top American military leaders who fought World War II, much to the surprise of many who are not aware of the record, were quite clear that the atomic bomb was unnecessary, that Japan was on the verge of surrender, and—for many—that the destruction of large numbers of civilians was immoral. Most were also conservatives, not liberals. Adm. William Leahy, President Truman’s Chief of Staff, wrote in his 1950 memoir I Was There that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… in being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

Plus I can't see where I'm shifting any goal posts.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Spoiler

I thought it was used to avoid a full-scale invasion. But hey, even if the analogy is good, my main point of contention (which is the same point of contention for most people) still stands: I do not buy Daenerys's character anymore. There is a pretty wide gulf between someone who's paranoid and someone who is a genocidal maniac, and the show's efforts to bridge that gap have been about as strong as her chemistry with Jon Snow.

 

[London Geezer]

Perhaps it would indeed be better to spin this off to another thread...

I must agree wholeheartedly with @Sigfried1977 - and the sentiment seems to be very widespread.

There is a humongous difference between 'foreshadowing' and actual development of a story.

No one hates the fact that Dani went mad. The execution, the way it was done - and no, foreshadowing and 'giving hints' here and there is NOT a good substitute for actual character development, which would be the show taking us on a journey that explains why something happens. Here it was just not done properly.

"Knowing that it would happen" like many predicted does not make the execution of the episode right. We shouldn't have to go outside the show (via books, interviews, people 'predicting' what would happen or whatever) to be able to understand why things happen in the show.

The reality is that no time was dedicated to really develop how Dani went from a place of being the 'protector of the people' and all the things that she was, but disappointed about things that happened, to killing completely innocent women and children of whom the character had been depicted as being the saviour up until that point.

We LOVE good characters turning bad, it's been done forever, and it's been done PROPERLY.

That is the very simple reason why so many people didn't buy that resolution, why people are disappointed and confused. The development was not there. And no, 'foreshadowing' does not excuse the writers for failing to say something actually interesting about the human condition, when so many other shows and movies have done this good-to-bad flip sooooo much better - think Willow turning bad in Buffy (has to be the best example). Heck, character development has been done much better in GoT, it's why we watched for so many years.

Or even without the good guy turns bad element, complicated character development is a big job that needs to be done correctly, and it has been done so much better, for decades, even in 'lesser' franchises like the bloody MCU!

Can't believe I'm still trying to explain this.

 

[Picao84]

The reality is that no time was dedicated to really develop how Dani went from a place of being the 'protector of the people' and all the things that she was, but disappointed about things that happened, to killing completely innocent women and children of whom up the character had been depicted as being the saviour until that point.

I'm sorry but I've never seen her as "Protector" of the people. I've always seen her as an opportunist who did everything she did for her own ego, because she loves to be adored (hence the obsession with bending the knee) and to have a chance to get the Throne. Someone whose genuine mission is to protect the people (like poor Varys was) can never be as obsessed as she was with titles and having people bowing down to her will. You don't protect people by denying their basic freedom to support whoever they want. You don't protect people by forcing them to support you like she did with North Alliance and Jon Snow. You are not protecting them, you are making them your slaves!

Her all demeanor from season four onwards was "you are with me or you burn!". Tell me again how is that liberating someone, if she takes free will from them?

And yes, I cannot believe I have to make this point again and again. She was never the angel you seem to believe she was.

 

[London Geezer]

I never said she was an angel. As I wrote in my last post, People are complicated. Characters are complicated. This complicated character deserved better and should have been done better, and the vast majority agrees. “It’s in her blood”. “It was foreshadowed”. Sorry but no.

 

[Malo]

Spoiler

I still want to know WTF was up with the wildfire explosions.

Spoiler

The barrels would have been leftover from both the attack on the city during GoT and probably leftover from when Aerys Targaryan used them to slaughter hundreds many years ago. There were comments much easier in the series about finding them hidden still around the city. I got the impression they also wanted that as a parallel to Aerys the mad king and Daenarys basically doing the same thing as her father.

 

[Arwin]

Season 7 completely lost me on the series. I could barely be bothered to finish watching it. I haven’t even started on season 8. I do want to watch it now but not in a hurry. You haven’t done too well here with the spoiler tags though ...

 

[digitalwanderer]

You made it all the way to season 7? I'm not sure if it was 3 or 4 where I gave up on it, too many internal inconsistencies and I just HATED how travel time seemed to vary wildly depending on the plot point needed.

I'm enjoying hearing about it crashing and burning. LOL

 

[Svensk Viking]

I'm still mostly surprised that the backlash against GoT is coming now. I thought season 7 was a disaster, and the Beyond the Wall episode was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I mainly agree that it has been rushed and what is happening should have had more build up, but my overall opinion is that they're making the best out of the situation they've been caught in.

There has been much talk about Daenerys already, but I reacted already when reading the book, when she agreed to trade one dragon for the army and then betrayed them. It has been obvious to me since then that Daenerys is very much that the end justifies the means.