The Next-gen Situation discussion *spawn

[fearsomepirate]

I don't see how improvements in fidelity as well as resolution are mutually exclusive especially when considering the relatively low base we're improving from.

Since graphics chips have finite fill rate, you can do more operations per pixel at a lower resolution than a higher resolution. Modern graphics are heavily dependent on per-pixel operations and will be for the foreseeable future. There are a few games that run at native 1080p this generation. They don't look very good because resolution is a fill rate hog.

If framerate was ever considered important, they'd reduce the rest of the graphics, even resolution, to hit it, and that'll be true next-gen.

You mean like IW and Treyarch did? Call of Duty games have all run at 600p or less in order to maintain 60 fps. I doubt you'll see resolutions that low next gen. You should be able to achieve enough asset fidelity at 60ps and 720p that the gains from dropping to 600p just aren't worth it. Does Rage run at 720p native? They certainly cut the complexity of the lighting compared to other games.

I still expect a lot of 30 fps games, though, because I don't think developers have run out of things to invent yet.

 

[almighty]

You mean like IW and Treyarch did? Call of Duty games have all run at 600p or less in order to maintain 60 fps.

I wouldn't call it 60fps to be honest, more like 40-45fps from the video's I've seen.

 

[bkilian]

That may be true, but stable 30 fps is definitely lacking. Most disc-release games have drops and/or tearing (at least, UE3 games on PS3). Personally I'd take 720p at a constant 30 fps or better yet 60 fps over 1080p with the sorts of low framerates and tearing that I've experienced this gen. That all comes down to the targets devs set themselves though. If framerate was ever considered important, they'd reduce the rest of the graphics, even resolution, to hit it, and that'll be true next-gen. If they can render a game at 1080p but with slower framerate, they have the option to reduce scene complexity, and/or reduce resolution to hit the solid framerate. That's true of PC too, only there the devs can choose to hit a visual complexity target and leave the customers to decide with their wallet what quality of resolution and framerate they'll play it at.

It all comes down to dev choices though, not hardware. Resolution, framerate, detail, are in balance and the devs shift the balance for their own preference.

I doubt we'll see a completely stable framerate across the board. If you _do_ have one, it was a design decision, and they dropped other features in favour of it. Generally, since game loads are often "bursty", I find that games optimise for good response most of the time, and let the frame rate drop on occasion instead of leaving out technical features. I don't see why having more power available will change this behaviour, all that'll happen will be that they will have a higher base level of features.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't see why having more power available will change this behaviour, all that'll happen will be that they will have a higher base level of features.

I don't either. That's the way it's been for generations. Although I do recall R-Type on the Sega Master System that dropped bobs but kept framerate, due to technical limitations I'm sure. It'd be nice if the busy scaling was better managed then dropped frames though, such as dynamic resolution. Temporal resolution is really underrated, but it's possibly the most important dimension in games. When things get busy is when you most need a clear understanding of what's going on in order to react, but that's when the feedback slows down and leaves you the most confused.

 

[(((interference)))]

Yeah, more games should implement dynamic resolution scaling - as scenes which typically cause framerate drops are the ones where you're least likely to notice a drop in resolution, since there'll typically be so much else going on (explosions, other VFX etc.).

I completely agree that maintaining control responsiveness is much more important than resolution at such times - plus it'd also make those scenes more impressive and involving - since it's more realistic than having everything go into slow motion when there's a lot of stuff on screen.

 

[jonabbey]

So what does everyone think of the bad news swarming around AMD? It sounds like a lot of folks are expecting them to implode any week now..

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/10/analyst-calls-amd-un-investable-downgrades-rating/
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/10/15/...-management-doesnt-understand-semiconductors/

etc.. ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What would happen if they did crumble? With the hardware designs completed, someone somewhere (investors, creditors) ought to be willing to let the consoles go ahead as there's guaranteed money there. Would those contracts be handled independently of the rest of the company? Is there any chance if AMD did fold, the consoles would be taken with them?

Could the GPU arm be split off again back to ATi?

 

[jonabbey]

What would happen if they did crumble? With the hardware designs completed, someone somewhere (investors, creditors) ought to be willing to let the consoles go ahead as there's guaranteed money there. Would those contracts be handled independently of the rest of the company? Is there any chance if AMD did fold, the consoles would be taken with them?

Could the GPU arm be split off again back to ATi?

I don't know. I assume the GPUs will be licensed to Microsoft and Sony for them to manufacture with whatever foundry they like, but I had thought that the x86 IP that AMD is to be using was more restricted by terms of AMD's agreement with Intel?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's what people here have been saying, meaning AMD have to supply the chips. If they fold (a discussion for elsewhere!), it'll be the responsibility of the license holder to allow manufacturing or something, no? Or MS/Sony could license direct from Intel.

 

[almighty]

I can't see it happening to be honest, just people blowing things up and making them appear worse then they actually are.

Although Qualcomm is rumoured to be after them ( Again )

 

[Squilliam]

Why would Qualcomm be interested in amd as a company ?

 

[almighty]

Why would Qualcomm be interested in amd as a company ?

Because of the patents, IP's and engineers...... x86 liecense they come with.... Loads of reasons

 

[Pete]

All I read is that their x86 license isn't transferable, so that can't be a reason.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

So what does everyone think of the bad news swarming around AMD? It sounds like a lot of folks are expecting them to implode any week now..

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/10/analyst-calls-amd-un-investable-downgrades-rating/
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/10/15/...-management-doesnt-understand-semiconductors/

etc.. ?

That totally sucks for them, they'll most likely be in the industry.....since i don't see them being a yogurt company.

On the up side This means Nintendo, Microsoft, And Sony's licensing costs on the chips they selected are going to be dirt cheap to make.

.......I hope with the money MS and Sony will be saving they move up to higher GPU chips and seize the moment before AMD gets taken over by new management. we can all expect a possible 50 to $100 price cut on all of their products by the end of the year.

With the dirt cheap prices that will soon hit the market there's just no way Nvidia will attract the hearts of the console industry.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

I don't know. I assume the GPUs will be licensed to Microsoft and Sony for them to manufacture with whatever foundry they like, but I had thought that the x86 IP that AMD is to be using was more restricted by terms of AMD's agreement with Intel?

In a capitalistic world, Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony are entitled to their chips...at the prices they get them at. In other words AMD can't jack the prices up once they get bought out with mega discounts.

A 4-6 Tflop console at reasonable price looks possible....IF the tech is bought out in advanced before new management readjust the price listings. somebody should look out for Pricing spreadsheets.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In a capitalistic world, Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony are entitled to their chips...at the prices they get them at. In other words AMD can't jack the prices up once they get bought out with mega discounts.

A 4-6 Tflop console at reasonable price looks possible....IF the tech is bought out in advanced before new management readjust the price listings. somebody should look out for Pricing spreadsheets.

If they were buying warehouse stock, sure. But for custom parts, the price would have been determined years ago and be rock solid ,non-negotiable. If the design back in 2007 or whenever was a 2 TF machine, then that's what'll be delivered and there won't be a last minute redesign and renegotiation (unless MS/Sony shelve their current console plans and move the next upgrade back a year or two).

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

If they were buying warehouse stock, sure. But for custom parts, the price would have been determined years ago and be rock solid ,non-negotiable. If the design back in 2007 or whenever was a 2 TF machine, then that's what'll be delivered and there won't be a last minute redesign and renegotiation (unless MS/Sony shelve their current console plans and move the next upgrade back a year or two).

True, assuming the blueprints of the core GPU/CPU's designs of both consoles are exclusive and crafted out already to console specifications....If it was already started by now then yeah it might not be renegotiable anymore.

The only reason why I've speculated as such is because of the accuracy of these "supposedly" leaks of these consoles. with tech changing in these prints and them being old, i could only imagine that it's still up in the air to change again. We haven't yet seen a leak of neither console's chips, in actual pics or solid documents, being that we're at the end of this year now.

Of course, all of that can change in a heart beat within the next few months. for all it's worth, at of all the ramble "southern islands" is all i'm hearing. if so then that's grate, but we can expect them to be good for the minimal of 6 years. IMO, 6 years should be the term for consoles from now on anyways. anything higher and the tech needs to be light years ahead.

 

[Rangers]

not sure where to put this, but found it interesting that new ipad is rated at 76gflops, triple the previous mobile high

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6426/ipad-4-gpu-performance-analyzed-powervr-sgx-554mp4-under-the-hood

I'm guessing in practice it's much closer to the consoles 250 gflop GPU's (through greater efficiency perhaps), since even a few games for 25 gflop iDevices looked almost as good as 360 imo.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I'm guessing in practice it's much closer to the consoles 250 gflop GPU's (through greater efficiency perhaps), since even a few games for 25 gflop iDevices looked almost as good as 360 imo.

I'm guessing you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Yeah, and those iOS games get "console quality" graphics by using every cheat in the book and strictly controlling the experience. There are no open world, traffic filled racers on iOS. There are no shooters with huge arenas and destructable structures. It's easy to make a good looking game if you're always in a simple hallway or driving in a circle.