The hodge fallout from Sony's Value Comparison chart *spawned*

[eastmen]

See, here is the problem with your current stance:

You point out that Sony does not include an HD cable with their system out of the box, and that "consumers" will pay upwards of $70 for such items at Best Buy. In this scenario, you are assuming that the consumer is uninformed and knows no better.

Yes because sony assumes everyone will spend $100 for an xbox wifi connector. So if they are buying brand name for the 360 , why not brand name for the ps3 ?

Later, you say that consumers can find 20GB HDD's cheap, and WiFi dongles / adapters for $20. Unfortunately, you say this under the assumption that the consumer is in fact informed, and knows that they can do this.

You should re read my post. I've specificly said you can do worse case senarios with both , but yes if a customer goes into a B&B store they will be pressured to buy certian cables. For everyone who knows about monorpice i'm sure there are 50 who don't. There will be those that can go out and buy it cheaper and i'm one of thm.

So which is it? Are we dealing with consumers that know they can find products for cheap prices, or consumers who think what they see at a retail store is all they can get?

You should ask sony that.

I completely understand your point, however, you need to be consistent on all fronts (as does Sony) if you wish to do a comparison in such a manner. I think it's rather ironic you would call out Sony for their bad comparisons, and then do something similar (tailor your figures to suit your argument).

I don't see why I have to be consistant. I was making a point about using retail pricing for add ons to make any console look bad.

Regardless of which "side" you are on (if you are on one) all 3 companies have done an absolutely terrible job this generation with packins and features out of the box. I can create a list of things that should be standard with a console, and not one of the 3 includes everything I need / want. Unfortunately, that's just the way things are in a multi-console competitor-driven industry. You have to make decisions and add features others don't have, and sometimes you have to sacrifice something else in order to do that.

Which is what I said in my post if you read it

Also, seems that PS3 Blu-Ray Remote is between $20 and $25, I can't seem to find one for $30.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5607955

Seems your right , I thought i paid $30 for mine, but I guess i was wrong or it had a price drop. If not I saved $5 bucks !



I just find it funny , that sony adveritises this hd experiance and then doesn't even give you the required cables for that experiance.



Every console has hidden fees based on what you want to do with it.

 

[Crossbar]

I don't know , but i find it really hard to understand why sony did this chart when they don't even include HD cables of any kind with both models of their system ($400 and $500) While MS is able to provide component /composite with thier ($300 system) and componet/composite and HDMI with their ($400 unit)

I don´t get this post. The table clearly specifies the Arcade unit, not the Pro or Elite unit. If it would be any other unit the resulting sum at bottom of the table would look different as well.

When any company makes comparison tables they will always be tweaked in favour of their product, there is no arguing there. But I think Sony has nailed some good points.

The live subcription fee will be very hard to justify in the long run. I would argue that the PS3 already has all the basic online features you need for online gaming, with in-game XMB and trophies in place, some of the most important bullit points have been checked. Setting up games may still lack some polish, but they will likely get there as well. On the other hand PSN offers a range of features lacking in Live, such as full size games, Home, Life etc.

BTW I would love to see a comparison table made by any competetitor and see them leaving out the blu-ray drive.

 

[joker454]

With all three consoles you can unpack it and play, unless I am missing something.

Nope you didn't miss anything. In fact you nailed it right on the head. With all of the consoles, you just unpack and play. Yet oddly, the $199 dollar option (the 360 Arcade) always gets dismissed as unusable without add-ons, which is just plain wrong. People constantly make the mistake of taking their own needs and circumstance, and extrapolating it to the gaming populace at large. That means nothing. The majority will buy the basic box, some games, and nothing more, making the 360 Arcade a perfect and cheap option. Hence why 'value' charts of why you must purchase x, y and z in order to determine a consoles 'true' value are all moot.

 

[DrJay24]

Yes because sony assumes everyone will spend $100 for an xbox wifi connector. So if they are buying brand name for the 360 , why not brand name for the ps3 ?

This is disingenuous and you must know it. There is only one Wi-Fi adapter for the 360, there are not five different ones on the shelf at BB. There is one, the rest of the solutions are hacks that 5% of the buyers will bother with. Are you going to tell some kids mother to buy a specific router and flash the firmware?

How can you honestly compare that to an industry standard like a HDMI cable?

 

[Blade47167]

Yes because sony assumes everyone will spend $100 for an xbox wifi connector. So if they are buying brand name for the 360 , why not brand name for the ps3 ?

That all fine and dandy except the cheapest solution for the 360's wireless problem is still at best $40 with a wireless bridge. You can buy HDMI cambles for $5 at monoprice.com

Brandnames or not its a cable vs. an actual add-on lol.

 

[mrcorbo]

This is disingenuous and you must know it. There is only one Wi-Fi adapter for the 360, there are not five different ones on the shelf at BB. There is one, the rest of the solutions are hacks that 5% of the buyers will bother with. Are you going to tell some kids mother to buy a specific router and flash the firmware?

How can you honestly compare that to an industry standard like a HDMI cable?

Wireless bridges aren't hacks. They are just as much an "industry standard" as an HDMI cable. That's why the 360 supports them even without having explicit support for them.

The reason that only 5% will bother with them (which you're probably right about) has a lot more to do with lack of awareness of the option than issues with the option itself.

 

[specwarGP2]

I don't know , but i find it really hard to understand why sony did this chart when they don't even include HD cables of any kind with both models of their system ($400 and $500) While MS is able to provide component /composite with thier ($300 system) and componet/composite and HDMI with their ($400 unit)

What's your beef? The chart is comparing PS3 80gb to a 360 arcade. Neither system comes with an HDMI cable so you bringing up that it's packed in with the other 360s is irrelevant.

 

[Zassk]

This is disingenuous and you must know it. There is only one Wi-Fi adapter for the 360, there are not five different ones on the shelf at BB.

Actually, there are several Linksys bridges that are certified as XBox 360 compatible, and are even listed as such on the Xbox web site.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Wireless bridges aren't hacks. They are just as much an "industry standard" as an HDMI cable. That's why the 360 supports them even without having explicit support for them.

The reason that only 5% will bother with them (which you're probably right about) has a lot more to do with lack of awareness of the option than issues with the option itself.

Sure, but wireless bridges tend to be more expensive than Routers modified with firmware to act as a bridge. Last time I priced them out DD-WRT supporting routers could be had for $40 while the cheapest bridges were being sold for $60 or so.

In any case, adding built in wifi hardware to a system at this point would be practically free. USB wifi adapters are cheap as dirt and Microsoft's official adapter is criminally overpriced.

These arguments are always pretty chippy, but Microsoft's accessory pricing is simply indefensible. And that's not a mistake. They structured their device in such a way as to protect revenue from official accessories. This is in stark contrast to Sony's embrace of open standards for storage, wireless controllers, etc, etc.

 

[eastmen]

This is disingenuous and you must know it. There is only one Wi-Fi adapter for the 360, there are not five different ones on the shelf at BB. There is one, the rest of the solutions are hacks that 5% of the buyers will bother with. Are you going to tell some kids mother to buy a specific router and flash the firmware?

How can you honestly compare that to an industry standard like a HDMI cable?

This is wrong. There are dozens if not dozens of dozens of wifi adapters taht work with the 360. I have a cheap wireless g one from microcenter that cost me $5 bucks after a $10 rebate that works just fine.

I didn't have to flash anything.

I mean are you going to go tell some kids mother to go search the internet for the lowest priced cable out there or is she going to go to bestbuy and buy one ? When she gets there she goes , oh i have a sony ps3 and I need an hdmi cable. Oh here is the sony ps3 hdmi cable from sony http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8657982&st=hdmi+cable&type=product&id=1196470144587

Only $80 bucks .

That all fine and dandy except the cheapest solution for the 360's wireless problem is still at best $40 with a wireless bridge. You can buy HDMI cambles for $5 at monoprice.com

Brandnames or not its a cable vs. an actual add-on lol.

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0243527

This guy works , its $9 bucks after a mail in rebate. Microcenter is a physical store in new jersey and other places that you can walk into and buy it. So that chance that some little kids mother will buy something here than go online and research and buy hdmi cables at mono price is much greater


Even with the arcade unit.

$200 with a game
$10 for wifi
$30 for a hardrive
= $240 vs
$400 for th base ps3.


I find their chart silly and I don't understand why they would do it when it shows what a horrible value the ps3 actually is


And of course I am sorry for derailing the thread, I didn't think that sony fans would come out of the wood work to actually defend this chart.

 

[catisfit]

May I ask where there is an "impact of no PS3 price drop" in this petty number-twisting game?

Although I have to say, the contradictions in some of these posts are ROFL amusing

 

[DrJay24]

This is wrong. There are dozens if not dozens of dozens of wifi adapters taht work with the 360. I have a cheap wireless g one from microcenter that cost me $5 bucks after a $10 rebate that works just fine.

I didn't have to flash anything.

You linked something that no where says anything about Xbox 360. How on Earth would anyone know if it worked (I still don't even believe it and I follow this stuff daily), I mean console buyers can't even figure out how to buy generic cables.

Even with the arcade unit.

$200 with a game
$10 for wifi
$30 for a hardrive
= $240 vs
$400 for th base ps3.

Again, you are cherry picking numbers. 95% of the population is going to see numbers like:

$199 Arcade
$99 60GB Kit
$99 Wi-Fi

When they are in just about any store in the Xbox section.

I find their chart silly and I don't understand why they would do it when it shows what a horrible value the ps3 actually is


And of course I am sorry for derailing the thread, I didn't think that sony fans would come out of the wood work to actually defend this chart.

I don't see anyone defending the chart, I think it's silly too, but you are the one who posted it along with the hyperbole. The bottom line is the $400 PS3 is a great value to those who want what it has.

$300 Premium + $200 BD player = $500 > $400 80GB PS3, that's ignoring XBL and Wi-Fi pices for the sake of argument. Can you not recognize this as a value?

Does that mean Sony should not drop the price? No, they need to get to $299 ASAP, they should also throw in a 6' HDMI cable to add value and kill a talking point.

 

[eastmen]

You linked something that no where says anything about Xbox 360. How on Earth would anyone know if it worked (I still don't even believe it and I follow this stuff daily), I mean console buyers can't even figure out how to buy generic cables.

Same way people know that any hdmi cable would work on a ps3 where on a ps1 and ps2 you needed Sony cables for it to work ?

YOu simply go into a store and ask. I know thats how i found out this worked. I asked the dudes at microcenter and he said here you go this will work. I took it home and it worked just fine.

Again, you are cherry picking numbers. 95% of the population is going to see numbers like:

$199 Arcade
$99 60GB Kit
$99 Wi-Fi

When they are in just about any store in the Xbox section.

Why would they see that ? I go into a store and I don't even see that !

That aslo suposes that people need those thigns. You do know you don't need a hardrive to play games on the 360 ? However you do to play games on the ps3 and some games you even need to isntall like the mega popular mgs4

don't see anyone defending the chart, I think it's silly too, but you are the one who posted it along with the hyperbole. The bottom line is the $400 PS3 is a great value to those who want what it has.

And the bottom line is that the 360 offers a value that the ps3 can't compare to

$300 Premium + $200 BD player = $500 > $400 80GB PS3, that's ignoring XBL and Wi-Fi pices for the sake of argument. Can you not recognize this as a value?

ps3 at $400 + $200 netflix streamer = $600

Can't you recognize that as a value ?

As i already said everyone wants these consoles for a diffrent purpose. adding $ money to a system to make it look worse than another is silly.

I would say at least 90% of the people buying these systems are using it for their primary purpose of playing video games . Would you not agree ? At $200 the arcade unit will do that for the 360 and you can get many other additonal features like netflix streaming at that $200 price point. The cheapest ps3 to just play games on is $400. Thats what makes this chart silly. What makes it extremely silly is that to use the features talked about like bluray you need an aditional cable that is not included and thus your spending extra on bluray discs to get dvd quality out of them

Does that mean Sony should not drop the price? No, they need to get to $299 ASAP, they should also throw in a 6' HDMI cable to add value and kill a talking point.

at the very least they should throw in component cables. I think at $400 though they should match ms with both sets of cables.


I think the ps3 represents a great value if you want to use all of its features. I currently own one and I enjoy it for what I use it as. DO i think its value is in line with the chart they posted ? No . Do i feel that they advertising high def features of the system and selling it with a cable regulating it to sd is a funny ass thing to do and they should be ashamed of themselves for that ? Yes. Same way i feel that the 360 pro should have the break out box and that arcade should come with component composite.

 

[NavNucST3]

For all of these comparisons and for those of us in the US do you think you all could decide on one store and then make the comparisons? Can we decide on what a "typical home" is going to be and then make the comparisons or at least separate "the kids room" from "the living room" and then make the comparisons? If CEA is cited can we stick with their household numbers? If Nielsen is cited can we stick with those numbers? Could we at least note that two out of the three systems include five games when making the value argument? Or why don't we do one of those "Your 2009 Gaming setup" threads to get an idea of what the B3D user-base configs are and do some bastardized extrapolations...

My issue with the pr statement is not the chart, it is the effort being put into trying to get more people to buy the system which, while that IS something you want, it is the current PS3 user-base that they need to be targeting to buy more GAMES and certainly more first-party games. Currently, it does not seem as if the appetite for spending gaming dollars amongst PS3 users is as voracious as the appetite amongst 360 users for spending gaming dollars (the million dollars spent in HOME notwithstanding).

 

[obonicus]

For all of these comparisons and for those of us in the US do you think you all could decide on one store and then make the comparisons? Can we decide on what a "typical home" is going to be and then make the comparisons or at least separate "the kids room" from "the living room" and then make the comparisons? If CEA is cited can we stick with their household numbers? If Nielsen is cited can we stick with those numbers? Could we at least note that two out of the three systems include five games when making the value argument? Or why don't we do one of those "Your 2009 Gaming setup" threads to get an idea of what the B3D user-base configs are and do some bastardized extrapolations...

How about we don't have these discussions at all? No one can agree on what comprises value, people just keep reiterating the same points. 'Wifi is $10 dollars!' 'No, it's $60!' 'No, it's $10!'

My issue with the pr statement is not the chart, it is the effort being put into trying to get more people to buy the system which, while that IS something you want, it is the current PS3 user-base that they need to be targeting to buy more GAMES and certainly more first-party games. Currently, it does not seem as if the appetite for spending gaming dollars amongst PS3 users is as voracious as the appetite amongst 360 users for spending gaming dollars (the million dollars spent in HOME notwithstanding).

Are you sure this is true? One the last NPDs (probably October)had someone comparing attach rate for multiplatform games and it mostly matched up with the 360's, taking into account the smaller install base. November I don't think this ratio held up, though.

 

[NavNucST3]

How about we don't have these discussions at all? No one can agree on what comprises value, people just keep reiterating the same points. 'Wifi is $10 dollars!' 'No, it's $60!' 'No, it's $10!'

That has been asked for about 100 times by the moderators, I'm at a point now where we just need one big ass value thread and sticky it.

Are you sure this is true? One the last NPDs (probably October)had someone comparing attach rate for multiplatform games and it mostly matched up with the 360's, taking into account the smaller install base. November I don't think this ratio held up, though.

What I am looking for from PS3 owners is for comparable software titles to do the same numbers that the 360 was doing at the current PS3 LTD (in the US).

 

[eastmen]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GameStop-holiday-sales-surge-apf-14009369.html

Hardware sales were led by Nintendo's Wii and Microsoft's Xbox 360. DeMatteo called Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3 a "great machine," but said it is just a bit pricey for the current economic environment. The cheapest Xbox 360, which comes without a hard drive, costs $200 and the Wii is $250. Sony Corp.'s 80-gigabyte PlayStation 3 console, which includes a Blu-ray player, sells for $400.

adn the top 5 games

Call of Duty: World at War
Guitar Hero World Tour
World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King
Gears of War 2
Wii Fit

this is all from gamestop

I'm sure the multiplatform titles includes all sales for the title and it may even been based on money not copies sold. That would be why guitar hero is so high up. $180 for the complete bundle would mean you have to sell 3 copies of gears of war to equal the same cash flow. Wii fit is the same. for every wii fit you'd have to sell 1.6 copies of gears of war.

There are no ps3 only games on that list.

 

[Tap In]

Y

Again, you are cherry picking numbers. 95% of the population is going to see numbers like:

$199 Arcade
$99 60GB Kit
$99 Wi-Fi

95%? I disagree

the majority will see this:

$199 Arcade (with included memory card and already have a wired connection or will not want connect. -you do not need HDD to play online and Ethernet IS included in all models)

another percentage will see this:

$199 Arcade
$29.99 (20GB HDD + 3mos live Pack)

and a percentage will see this
$199 arcade
$99 wireless bridge

and a percentage will see this
$199 arcade
$50 wireless bridge
$99 60GB

and a percentage will see this
$199 arcade
$20 USED HDD 20GB

and a percentage will see this
$199 arcade
$50 wireless bridge

etc. etc. etc.

it's called, having options. :smile:

 

[Cheezdoodles]

FFS.

Cant you people stop nitpicking and arguing about irrelevant things?

If you want to look at costs of a console, look at the official licenced gear only. I dont care if the product your talking about is perfect, if its not official dont use it in pricing comparisons!!!!

Its completely ridiculous to nitpick these acessory gadgets and try to select stuff that makes your favored console come out on top. Aspecially when people are starting to use unofficial gear in their comparisons.

Can't we all agree that the Base entry price is cheapest with a X360. Leave it at that.

These discussions about if you can buy a Wifi adapter for the X360 for $50 or for $10 are not only very boring and pointless but they are also completely irrelevant for the topic of this thread.

 

[catisfit]

FFS.

Cant you people stop nitpicking and arguing about irrelevant things?

If you want to look at costs of a console, look at the official licenced gear only. I dont care if the product your talking about is perfect, if its not official dont use it in pricing comparisons!!!!

Its completely ridiculous to nitpick these acessory gadgets and try to select stuff that makes your favored console come out on top. Aspecially when people are starting to use unofficial gear in their comparisons.

Can't we all agree that the Base entry price is cheapest with a X360. Leave it at that.

These discussions about if you can buy a Wifi adapter for the X360 for $50 or for $10 are not only very boring and pointless but they are also completely irrelevant for the topic of this thread.

QFT

adn the top 5 games

...

There are no ps3 only games on that list.

You seem to have discovered the notion of "install base"