The hodge fallout from Sony's Value Comparison chart *spawned*

[eastmen]

Mod : I've taken this sidetrack discussion out of the original What is the impact of no PS3 price drop? thread, and seeing how we're past the circular arguments and into the rambling phase, will close it up.

This is the result

http://www.edge-online.com/news/sony-competitors-continue-peddling-add-ons

Driving the point home, the statement read, "The Xbox 360 requires additional money, multiple upgrades and additional external devices, putting a burden on the wallet and adds clutter to the entertainment center.

"And the Wii’s lack of enhanced features comes at the expense of a comprehensive entertainment solution.

"So as PS3 continues to evolve without the need for additional parts or expenses, expect the competition to continue peddling add-ons in an effort to keep up with the Jones’." [Sony's emphasis.]

I think their PR has hit a new low with this.

 

[Heinrich4]

This is the result

http://www.edge-online.com/news/sony-competitors-continue-peddling-add-ons



I think their PR has hit a new low with this.

I have impressions sony still think like old days US$600 price with competitor at range US$249 to 399...

(they still have choice to compete in console market or player Hi-def ...or maybe they dont know - despite experience since 1994 - how true focus of this product...)

 

[eastmen]

I don't know , but i find it really hard to understand why sony did this chart when they don't even include HD cables of any kind with both models of their system ($400 and $500) While MS is able to provide component /composite with thier ($300 system) and componet/composite and HDMI with their ($400 unit)

I mean honestly it be very easy for ms to point out that buying an hdmi cable in bestbuy can cost as much as $180 bucks and surely the average consumer going there will be persuaded very strongly to buy the $70 insignia (best buy brand) hdmi cable.

I also don't understand why they bring up a lack of a hdmi port. If your buying an xbox $360 with no hdmi port your buying used and the price is going to be much lower.


I don't want to start a flame or fight about price break downs , but you'd think they'd stay away from it when thy lack a hd cable in the box

 

[obonicus]

Let's not start this argument again, please?

 

[Zassk]

The road being travelled by Sony in that PR is a treacherous one - there are missing features in both directions of the comparisons, and one can assign price tags to all of them.

But at least two things on their table are inaccurate - there was never an Arcade SKU sold without HDMI, and every Arcade qualifies for a $30 mail-in hard drive.

And what does "limited" online mean for Wii? It's just a bad table all around.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think their PR has hit a new low with this.

It's not a new low. Sony have been scraping these depths all this gen. There's really no point to discussing PR though, as we all know. Certainly no 'this compnay is worse than that one at PR spin' is welcome here. In fact I'd better prune it out before that gets out of hand.

Edit : So officially, by all means complain about Sony's choices in this table if you really feel the need, but no comparisons between corporate use of PR and FUD please.

 

[tha_con]

The road being travelled by Sony in that PR is a treacherous one - there are missing features in both directions of the comparisons, and one can assign price tags to all of them.

But at least two things on their table are inaccurate - there was never an Arcade SKU sold without HDMI, and every Arcade qualifies for a $30 mail-in hard drive.

And what does "limited" online mean for Wii? It's just a bad table all around.

And what exactly is treacherous about it? Please elaborate. Are we suddenly going to see the fall of the gaming industry? Will people suddenly stop purchasing Wiis and 360s in favor of PS3s?

Or will a few consumers learn something new, even if they are slightly mislead (because really, the negatives listed here are just a joke, and not worth the reactions).

I mean, when you really look at it, this is nothing more than standard PR with some over the top comparisons, it's pretty standard fare for any PR office.

I certainly don't think this is "dangerous" by any means, or even harmful. In fact, I'd wager this PR did absolutely nothing in terms of sales, and has only fed the forums with a topic of discussion, nothing more.

Yet here we are yet again discussing PR, spin, and how terrible the industry can be. Shouldn't we all be acclimated to this by now? I mean, we've only been seeing this for what, a few decades?

Remember, Sega does what Ninten-DONT.

 

[Zassk]

Ok, just one example, then - IR remote compatibility has had a bigger impact on my family than any of the "extra cost" items that Sony listed for the XBox or Wii. See where I'm going with this? IMO Sony's not in a good position to be starting a "list war" and should stick to other arguments.

 

[DrJay24]

It's a bad table, only because they could have made the same point being 100% honest. There really is a value difference when it comes to ala-cart stuff. If you buy the low end you can spend less, but if you are more of full-featured consumer then it adds up. The bottom line is proprietary add-on are costly (360 Wi-Fi, 360 HDs), industry standards with brand competition are not (HDMI, Bluetooth, any 2.5" SATA HD).

BTW I think the $30 HD is for those who qualify, the new Arcades have 256MB built in, the whole thing was for NXE compatibility.

 

[tha_con]

Ok, just one example, then - IR remote compatibility has had a bigger impact on my family than any of the "extra cost" items that Sony listed for the XBox or Wii. See where I'm going with this? IMO Sony's not in a good position to be starting a "list war" and should stick to other arguments.

Right, I understand that the list isn't 100% fair or accurate to all scenarios or consumers, the question is, why is it "treacherous"?

What I'm getting at is, why act as though this is a big deal, when the reality is, it's nothing more than a PR stunt to get a handful of eyes on it, and maybe sell a few more consoles.

As I stated previously, the likelyhood that this has had any impact at all on any consumers buying habits or opinions in regards to this console or the competition is slim. This has been, and will probably remain, nothing more than a forum discussion topic, and has absolutely no effect on the industry, or consumers, and as a result, should not be considered treacherous, dangerous, unfair, or anything else. Like all PR, it's not to be taken seriously, and should be read with a level head and taken with a grain of salt.

 

[eastmen]

It's a bad table, only because they could have made the same point being 100% honest. There really is a value difference when it comes to ala-cart stuff. If you buy the low end you can spend less, but if you are more of full-featured consumer then it adds up. The bottom line is proprietary add-on are costly (360 Wi-Fi, 360 HDs), industry standards with brand competition are not (HDMI, Bluetooth, any 2.5" SATA HD).

BTW I think the $30 HD is for those who qualify, the new Arcades have 256MB built in, the whole thing was for NXE compatibility.

You can still get it with the new arcades. NXE needs the full 256 so they will give you a 512 card or a 20 gig drive so you can save and acess dlc.

As for the add-ons , I don't really agree. The 20 gig 360 drives are going for $30-50 and you can get a wifi add on for $20 bucks. Almost any router / wifi dongle / bridge will work with a 360. So if your going to take the time to find a $5 cable on monoprice.com you can take the time to find a $15 usb wifi dongle for the 360.

I think though that when you look at B&B stores the prices for these things can be very expensive and none of the companys get a free pass on this. Go to a best buy and even the store brand cables are $70-$140 , remotes for the ps3 to use it as a bluray player (instead of the akward controler) are $30 bucks for the offical one. Need a head set ? the sony ones are $50 bucks. Need a keypad thats $30 and so on and so forth. I know the360 does it too and I don't really like it myself. I just don't get how you sell a system geared towards high def content and list it among its featres but don't packin any hd cables even when your compeitor does at $100 less .

The fact is that you can get a 360 for $200 and have a fun time playing games which is a consoles primary use. Sure if you need alot of stuff it can get very exensive. But the same is true for all 3 consoles and all consoles past and future. Companys want to make money on this stuff .

 

[tha_con]

You can still get it with the new arcades. NXE needs the full 256 so they will give you a 512 card or a 20 gig drive so you can save and acess dlc.

As for the add-ons , I don't really agree. The 20 gig 360 drives are going for $30-50 and you can get a wifi add on for $20 bucks. Almost any router / wifi dongle / bridge will work with a 360. So if your going to take the time to find a $5 cable on monoprice.com you can take the time to find a $15 usb wifi dongle for the 360.

I think though that when you look at B&B stores the prices for these things can be very expensive and none of the companys get a free pass on this. Go to a best buy and even the store brand cables are $70-$140 , remotes for the ps3 to use it as a bluray player (instead of the akward controler) are $30 bucks for the offical one. Need a head set ? the sony ones are $50 bucks. Need a keypad thats $30 and so on and so forth. I know the360 does it too and I don't really like it myself. I just don't get how you sell a system geared towards high def content and list it among its featres but don't packin any hd cables even when your compeitor does at $100 less .

The fact is that you can get a 360 for $200 and have a fun time playing games which is a consoles primary use. Sure if you need alot of stuff it can get very exensive. But the same is true for all 3 consoles and all consoles past and future. Companys want to make money on this stuff .

See, here is the problem with your current stance:

You point out that Sony does not include an HD cable with their system out of the box, and that "consumers" will pay upwards of $70 for such items at Best Buy. In this scenario, you are assuming that the consumer is uninformed and knows no better.

Later, you say that consumers can find 20GB HDD's cheap, and WiFi dongles / adapters for $20. Unfortunately, you say this under the assumption that the consumer is in fact informed, and knows that they can do this.

So which is it? Are we dealing with consumers that know they can find products for cheap prices, or consumers who think what they see at a retail store is all they can get?

I completely understand your point, however, you need to be consistent on all fronts (as does Sony) if you wish to do a comparison in such a manner. I think it's rather ironic you would call out Sony for their bad comparisons, and then do something similar (tailor your figures to suit your argument).

Regardless of which "side" you are on (if you are on one) all 3 companies have done an absolutely terrible job this generation with packins and features out of the box. I can create a list of things that should be standard with a console, and not one of the 3 includes everything I need / want. Unfortunately, that's just the way things are in a multi-console competitor-driven industry. You have to make decisions and add features others don't have, and sometimes you have to sacrifice something else in order to do that.

Also, seems that PS3 Blu-Ray Remote is between $20 and $25, I can't seem to find one for $30.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5607955

 

[midorigreenwood]

Microsoft have given you choice at the right price.

I just want to play videogames...I have maybe 1/2 hr to 1 hr a day to play home console videogames... if I'm lucky.

I don't have enough time for online this gen but if I ever get the urge to become a halo xbot, I can subscribe to xbox live gold.

They're not forcing you to do anything...... unlike the PS3 with its tacked on bluray drive...

If I'm a consumer making a decision between the two consoles, I'll just factor the XB live gold subscription costs into the price when making the choice.

online is not so important for me this gen so I don't need to add the 50-80 dollar yearly cost to the price of the console.

same deal with the harddrive and wireless etc

its like buying a car ....... xbox gives you the choice of optional extras.

PS3 is the model that forces you to get the built-in hifi system and seat massager for a heap more moolah.

I just want to buy a car that drives damnit >,<


The price difference has gotten so huge in europe (can buy 2 x360 arcades and a bluray drive and games for about the same price) that I'm surprised that microsoft hasn't become more aggressive with their advertising.

eg: possible midori attack ad

picture of an unsuspecting customer browsing at a PS3 at a store, 700 dollar price tag (aussie dollars) in plain view. Suddenly a guy in a grizzly bear suit comes out of nowhere and kung fu kicks the customer out of the screen.

text comes up on screen "X360: up to 400 dollars cheaper than PS3

 

[DrJay24]

As for the add-ons , I don't really agree.

I didn't expect you too, but tha_con covered most of it above.

A 120GB 360 HD is $99+, there is no alternative, none - it's MS or nothing. A 120GB HD for a PS3 is cheap, mine cost me $24. Now you can try to argue a HDMI cable can cost $180, but Sony is not the only producer of these, you have hundreds of choices and many of them are sub $10.

BTW don't you need a $40 HDMI thingy to use RCA or optical out with HDMI on some (all?) units?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I completely understand your point, however, you need to be consistent on all fronts (as does Sony) if you wish to do a comparison in such a manner. I think it's rather ironic you would call out Sony for their bad comparisons, and then do something similar (tailor your figures to suit your argument).

He wasn't doing comparisons he was just pointing holes in Sony's comparisons. If you read more carefully, you'll notice that he is not very happy with MS accesories policy either.

 

[joker454]

all 3 companies have done an absolutely terrible job this generation with packins

I disagree with this part. I know on forums people think that no one can possibly use a console unless they have the wifi attachment, waffle iron attachment, etc, but that's simply not true. Millions of PS2 owners had no problem gaming last gen with a bare bones PS2, and millions this gen will have no problems gaming with a 360 Arcade. It comes complete with everything you need to play: console, controller, memory card for save games, two free games, and tv hookup. It's complete. The test of it's completeness is easy, buy one as a gift for a niece, cousin, or whatever and watch what happens. They can unpack it and play it on the spot, no further trips to the store necessary because everything they need to play is included. That's what the vast majority of people will do because time and time again, stats show that most people don't buy a gagillion add ons.

 

[tha_con]

He wasn't doing comparisons he was just pointing holes in Sony's comparisons. If you read more carefully, you'll notice that he is not very happy with MS accesories policy either.

He made comparisons indirectly through both posts. I don't think you should attack me and assume that I somehow lack reading comprehension skills or read it too quickly.

You cannot say "well Sony doesn't include x item and it costs x at retail price for a first party accesory" and then say "accessory A on the XB360 can be as cheap as $X.XX".

You either compare retail to retail first party to first party, or make no comparison at all.

I disagree with this part. I know on forums people think that no one can possibly use a console unless they have the wifi attachment, waffle iron attachment, etc, but that's simply not true. Millions of PS2 owners had no problem gaming last gen with a bare bones PS2, and millions this gen will have no problems gaming with a 360 Arcade. It comes complete with everything you need to play: console, controller, memory card for save games, two free games, and tv hookup. It's complete. The test of it's completeness is easy, buy one as a gift for a niece, cousin, or whatever and watch what happens. They can unpack it and play it on the spot, no further trips to the store necessary because everything they need to play is included. That's what the vast majority of people will do because time and time again, stats show that most people don't buy a gagillion add ons.

Right, I understand that people played PS2 as it was bare bones.

However, you have to think, millions of people also bought a PS2 without the intention to watch DVD, but still used it to do so.

However, in an age where WiFi is becoming standard, HDTV's are becoming more and more common, rechargable devices are becoming the norm, things like this should all be included. I should have no need to buy batteries for a Wireless Controller that runs me north of $50. I should not need to buy additional HD cables. I should not need to buy a WiFi adapater to play wirelessly. Nor should I need to buy any sort of storage device what-so-ever. These are all weaknesses that one or more of the competitors share in their consoles.

I understand that some individuals will not need these features, however, if you are going to give the option to chose, you should at least give the consumer the courtesy of an affordable add-on.

Afterall, don't you find it odd that Microsoft was very pro-active when it came to offering the HD-DVD drive at a low price to consumers in order to compete with Blu-Ray, yet still charges $99 for a Wi-Fi adapter? That's not very consumer friendly, nor is excluding HD cables, having no storage solution while offering a huge downloadable service (Wii Store and WiiWare) etc.

All 3 competitors have done a good job with their console, but have had mis-steps with what is included / available to the system, IMO, and left just a LITTLE to be desired.

Also, these stats you talk about...aren't Wii Fit and Guitar Hero very popular 'add-ons' for each system? I think it depends more on the type of add-on offered for the system.

 

[DrJay24]

The test of it's completeness is easy, buy one as a gift for a niece, cousin, or whatever and watch what happens. They can unpack it and play it on the spot, no further trips to the store necessary because everything they need to play is included.

Well I think you are setting the goal post to a friendly spot on the field for MS. Do you need batteries for controllers? Can you play online out of the box? Can you use optical for audio? Can you use all the NXE features?

With all three consoles you can unpack it and play, unless I am missing something.

 

[Crossbar]

Perhaps. Just pointing out that what was apparently the distributor dumping out old 40GB + Sixaxis stock at a reduced price post-Christmas isn't quite the same as the 25-30% price cut that Ostepop's post indicated.

As I understood you were talking about the PS3 offerings on the Norwegian market. I saw one CE chain making the same discounted offer for a 40 GB PS3 bundle here in Sweden one week before christmas and they didn´t write 40GB in big letters so first I was happily surprised.

I wonder how the PS3 has done here over the holiday season, we have not seen the same deals that have been offered in UK and continental Europe. The price of the PS3 SKU > €400 and the game bundles usually > €450. Microsoft on the other hand is going full throttle and the Arcade unit bundled with two games cost less than a PS2 bundled with Singstar in many shops. The PS3 bundled with the same Singstar game costs three times more (actually even more). It´s not hard to understand that the price is hurting the PS3 sales.

Here´s some anecdotal evidence. :smile: I´ve met one family who actually bought the mentioned PS2 bundle for christmas, she told me they just couldn´t justify the price of the PS3, even though she would have liked to get it. Mind you they are pretty well off, so I imagine that the price is a pretty efficient showstopper for many blue collar workers. Another family I met were really interested in the PS3 because their kids had tried LBP and loved and they had read really favourable comments about in the press, but when they found out about the price they just laughed. Anyway they have both a PS2 and Wii before so the kids are not really lacking good games.

I don´t think the PS3 is lacking appeal, but I think Microsoft has somewhat a point when they talk about $200 as a magic price point. Somewhere around that price people are more willing to buy by impulse.
Talking about appeal, at two occasions I overheard teenagers discussing which HD console to buy and both times the sentiment was that the PS3 was the more powerful machine and the one to get if you could afford it. I was a bit surprised to hear this, maybe I am colured by the 360s momentum in the US that I read a lot about in this forum. I wonder if Blu-Ray is the main reason behind that perception, it looks like the most tangible reason to me.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

He made comparisons indirectly through both posts. I don't think you should attack me and assume that I somehow lack reading comprehension skills or read it too quickly.

Chill down I wasn't attacking anyone The fact is that the PR sony laid out there is clearly a best case scenario situation for them, eastmen just pointed that out and said that worst case scenario is just as true, yet most cases are somewhere in between. He wasn't claiming anything about that worst case scenario being the real deal here, just pointing out that both extremes are just as valid/invalid. You guys just went into defensive battle stance so fast, that you didn't realised it .