TES V: Skyrim

[homerdog]

Love this game tbw, just not the interface. Just read about the upcoming patch too, hopefully the patch notes are very incomplete or they're just scraping the surface where issues with this game is concerned. I remember when I first started playing, I came to Riverwood or whatsitscalled, the "starter" town and enter the smith's home and speak briefly to his daughter. I then turn to speak with his wife. When I turn back, the daughter has sat down at the table...INSIDE the table. Her head and top of shoulders are basically sticking out throgh the middle of the table's surface.

I instantly felt at home in another Bethesda game!

For the life of me I can't understand why Bethesda can't get these things right. Silly things like that happen almost always if you're around NPCs for any appreciable amount of time. Brooms disappearing from housekeeper's hands, people drinking out of invisible cups, people floating across the landscape, etc. Giants herding mammoths sounds cool, and almost is, until you watch the process for a few seconds and see how beasts bob up and down over the landscape without missing a beat in their "walk" animation.

I don't see this level of absurdity in any other games that I can recall. Granted very few games have the scope of an Elder Scrolls game, but the few that do (Gothic series come to mind) don't seem to have these problems on such a grand scale.

Homer can personally testify to the amount of crashes I encounter with Skyrim. If it wasn't so damn good, I would have quit long ago. I took a peek at the perks of smithing and seriously need to catch up. Those high level smithing armor sets are awesome.

For some reason Dresden like to exit and restart the game a lot

 

[banksie]

I was level 13 and it was fine. He summoned three dremora and I just hid behind a crystal sniping them with bow until he got pissed and charged me.

Yeah I just retried the quest as a level 16 and handled it, which is why I said low level. I tried it at level 7 and got a bit slaughtered several times.

 

[Frank]

So.

Do I think you should buy this game? Is it better than Deus Ex:HR? Definitely. Although; read on.

Is this GOTY?

Hmm. Difficult question. For one: there is little (if any) competition. But then again: while I do want Bethesda to keep on making these kind of games, I totally don't like the direction they're going with Oblivion, FO3 and now Skyrim.

Well, that's not completely true, I do very much like the art direction, locale uniqueness and crafting, but for most everything else, I like Morrowind much better.

So, buying this and making it GOTY would probably encourage Bethesda dumbing/consoliting the next game even more, perhaps to the point where even the Construction Set isn't enough to fix it.

Very nice to look at, but very bland and shallow in all other respects.

I don't know.

 

[swaaye]

Well as someone who is not much of a fantasy fan, but does love open world games so always buys TES, I do have some complaints. I'm not playing the game as a alchemy/crafting/fantasy lore fan but as a fan of open world gaming with action RPG aspects.

For one, the melee combat is just as flawed as Oblivion and Fallout 3. I am playing a bodyless floating head with arms. It lacks the feel of mass and the tactility of Dark Messiah. The finishing moves are tacky because they aren't really player controlled. They pull you out of the action and I think it's jolting every time. I actually wanted to turn them off but it's not an option. I also still can't figure out how to undraw a bow, which you can do in Dark Messiah, so I shoot arrows into the ground and pick them up (edit - apparently there is a button for this).

The AI is as retarded as ever, particularly the creatures. I have to slay 20 wolves and 5 bears to get to the eastern towns even by road. This is something Bethesda must not see as a problem if they keep designing games this way. Most enemies just beeline the player. No progress really at all aside from maybe a few more passive creatures.

Overall I think it's an excellent game due to the scale of it all but that it is quite flawed in the action area probably because of their game engine. They either lack interest or lack the technical expertise to whip it into shape for better gameplay combat feel. I also think that the Skyrim setting, with its extreme weather, would make for some fascinating survivalist aspects.

When comparing it to DXHR, I think one question that has to be asked is whether the player is more interested in science fiction or fantasy, and does he like open world games. I'm not a fantasy fan so much, but I am a huge fan of these open world style games, so Skyrim is definitely a strong competitor to DXHR whereas say Witcher is not.

 

[Frank]

When comparing it to DXHR, I think one question that has to be asked is whether the player is more interested in science fiction or fantasy, and does he like open world games. I'm not a fantasy fan so much, but I am a huge fan of these open world style games, so Skyrim is definitely a strong competitor to DXHR whereas say Witcher is not.

Yes, I totally agree.

While I like sci-fi much more in general and have played FO1&2 many times, I prefer the Elder Scrolls setting over Fallout 3/any other sci-fi setting I know.

That might be, because the sci-fi ones tend to be even more like your average FPS, while fantasy gives more freedom.

Well, my perfect game would be Morrowind, with the graphics, modding (probably) and AI of Skyrim.

 

[Albuquerque]

Yeah, I agree with Swaaye on that specific point, and I know that Frank has mentioned it too. Bethesda games are almost their own entire genre, nobody else really makes a game that's anything like it. Some people will hate it, because they just don't know what to do (I know this was mentioned further upstream in this thread), others might find it "just fine" but may only play it through the main storyline and then go on to another game.

For me, Bethesda games are a very long, thoroughly enjoyable experience where I examine the entire world, and do so at my own leisure. These are the kinds of games that I really like, and they're hard to find. The GTA series and Red Dead Redemption are the only two other games that I feel offer anything remotely similar in sense of adventure and discovery and simple, pure "sandbox" play.

That doesn't mean that ALL of the above aren't without their own faults, to be sure

Edit: I felt compelled to signify my utter and complete agreement with Frank's statement: my perfect game would be Morrowind, with the graphics, modding (probably) and AI of Skyrim. Yes! This time a million!

 

[Frank]

Thanks

 

[Frank]

Take 2

Well as someone who is not much of a fantasy fan, but does love open world games so always buys TES, I do have some complaints. I'm not playing the game as a alchemy/crafting/fantasy lore fan but as a fan of open world gaming with action RPG aspects.

To me, the amount of influence you have and the amount of creativity you can use while doing so, are definitely a measurement of how "open world" the game is. Crafting plays just as big a part in that as the construction set, mostly because it's in-game.

For one, the melee combat is just as flawed as Oblivion and Fallout 3. I am playing a bodyless floating head with arms. It lacks the feel of mass and the tactility of Dark Messiah. The finishing moves are tacky because they aren't really player controlled. They pull you out of the action and I think it's jolting every time. I also still can't figure out how to undraw a bow, which you can do in Dark Messiah, so I shoot arrows into the ground and pick them up.

Agreed. But I don't play these games for the combat: I mostly craft something that allows me to one-shot any nuisance.

The AI is as retarded as ever, particularly the creatures. I have to slay 20 wolves and 5 bears to get to the eastern towns even by road. This is something Bethesda must not see as a problem if they keep designing games this way. Most enemies just beeline the player. No progress really at all aside from maybe a few more passive creatures.

I don't agree.

For one, half the wildlife is harmless. Rats and rabbits won't foam and attack you on sight. That's cool.

For another: the npc's now actually do meaningful things.

But the best: followers are actually able to follow you, and enemies do try and use tactics and their best weapons.

Not perfectly, definitely not, but much better than in all the predecessors.

Overall I think it's an excellent game due to the scale of it all but that it is horribly flawed probably because of their game engine. They either lack interest or lack the technical expertise to whip it into shape for better gameplay combat feel.

I think the management is mostly to blame here. "Vision".

 

[homerdog]

Well as someone who is not much of a fantasy fan, but does love open world games so always buys TES, I do have some complaints. I'm not playing the game as a alchemy/crafting/fantasy lore fan but as a fan of open world gaming with action RPG aspects.

For one, the melee combat is just as flawed as Oblivion and Fallout 3. I am playing a bodyless floating head with arms. It lacks the feel of mass and the tactility of Dark Messiah. The finishing moves are tacky because they aren't really player controlled. They pull you out of the action and I think it's jolting every time. I actually wanted to turn them off but it's not an option. I also still can't figure out how to undraw a bow, which you can do in Dark Messiah, so I shoot arrows into the ground and pick them up (edit - apparently there is a button for this).

The AI is as retarded as ever, particularly the creatures. I have to slay 20 wolves and 5 bears to get to the eastern towns even by road. This is something Bethesda must not see as a problem if they keep designing games this way. Most enemies just beeline the player. No progress really at all aside from maybe a few more passive creatures.

Overall I think it's an excellent game due to the scale of it all but that it is quite flawed in the action area probably because of their game engine. They either lack interest or lack the technical expertise to whip it into shape for better gameplay combat feel. I also think that the Skyrim setting, with its extreme weather, would make for some fascinating survivalist aspects.

When comparing it to DXHR, I think one question that has to be asked is whether the player is more interested in science fiction or fantasy, and does he like open world games. I'm not a fantasy fan so much, but I am a huge fan of these open world style games, so Skyrim is definitely a strong competitor to DXHR whereas say Witcher is not.

I think you are spot on here.

It seems the greatest limitation Bethesda faces is their absolutely ancient engine. I'm now convinced it isn't the right tool for the job. Graphics are a mix of very bad and very good, giving it a very inconsistent feel. AI is some kind of abomination; many times I have been able to kill foes that I should never be capable of killing because they get stuck on some piece of geometry and I can whittle them down with my bow. And I'm talking about pieces of geometry that are clearly part of the main path. Physics and animation are a bad joke. And apparently the game is woefully unstable for many. (not me fortunately)

So why still do I love the game so much? I could say the same things about Morrowind and yet it's perhaps my favorite game of all time. I'm still trying to answer this question...

BTW Dark Messiah is the best first person melee combat ever and press R to undraw your bow

 

[swaaye]

Why still do I love the game so much? I could say the same things about Morrowind and yet it's perhaps my favorite game of all time. I'm still trying to answer this question...

BTW Dark Messiah is the best first person melee combat ever and press R to undraw your bow

I am totally amazed by the level of detail Bethesda puts into these huge games. That's the draw for me. It is the most impressive gaming escapism there is IMO. I am all about this virtual world simulation stuff.

Oblivion was a giant leap ahead from Morrowind on that virtual interactive world front. With real action gameplay, physics, stunning visuals and actually having AI. But Skyrim is not really all that different than Oblivion. It's a small improvement outside of the much better grip they have on making it pretty. The AI, animation, stutters, movement feel, and combat all feel 90% like Oblivion to me and have the same flaws and this surprises me.

The problems with the engine are unfortunate. I get the feeling that their choices for engines are very limited because of the type of game they build. This engine is actually an evolution of the Netimmerse engine from Morrowind. They licensed it for years and then when Gamebryo died I think they bought the tech (hence name change). It will be interesting to see what they do now because they will have to either develop it on their own or license something else...

 

[Vadi]

Nice review.

I'm still level 20 at the moment and haven't completed the main quest yet.

I'm lucky I'm a fighter type, which the games seems to be tailored to, yes. I'm not playing like a seasoned hardcore RPG gamer or something by abusing aspects of the game and then whining about the outcome either.
When they talk about enchanting breaking heavy armor skills: well if you try to roleplay the game, the problem is less severe. Yes, you can create stuff that reduces stamina or magicka cost to zero, but there is no quest that requires you to do it.

Smithing iron daggers to enhance skill to mastery isn't such an error for me, but surely splitting the advances into the various types would have been more challenging - like create orcish stuff to become better at it. That way getting the material would play larger role.
Speech enhancing while trading stuff is fine too, you can still be a dungeon crawling grunt who just finds stuff by themselves if you want to. And even if you inadvertently enhance your speech by trading you can still select the fight option or whatever in a quest.

However not being able to complete quests without fights as thief or something is true, but I never saw a game which truly accomplished this in a very good manner. Other (praised) games are crude attempts too.
I agree with the amusement park thing, that the dungeons are isolated from the rest. Also I want more Alteration spells, but I'm spoiled by Baldur's Gate 2. NPCs being always neutral and the awful quest log are big errors too.

The game should be a lot better, but these graphics are not cheap and its very risky to create graphically "unrealistic" games these days also,

 

[Grall]

AI is some kind of abomination; many times I have been able to kill foes that I should never be capable of killing because they get stuck on some piece of geometry and I can whittle them down with my bow.

"Abomination" really is a fitting word to put on what you describe. Pathfinding is truly terrible in this game, especially considering you can have permanent followers at all times. They just CAN'T move across anything that isn't normal ground. All outcroppings and such are separate objects to the game engine and followers don't know how to handle that. They'll start running around an entire mountain to try and get to you just because you jumped on top of a boulder... Ridiculous.

Absolutely one of the most urgently needed fixes IMO because it really hinders exploration. I can't bring my companion with me because he's so immensely, unbelievably stupid and gets stuck on everything. It's worse than all those silly FPS games where any ledge taller than knee height is an impassable barrier because the player can't jump any higher; this game is all ABOUT exploration and finding nooks and crannies and so on...

Speaking about nooks and such; there were about a million billion places where you would get permanently stuck in Morrowind, and the only way to fix it was either using almsivi intervention or some other teleport skill, or reload a save. Well, I guess you could hover away too if you have a potion or spell.

I haven't found any teleport spells in Skyrim though so I don't know what I'd do. I suppose frequent saving is the way to go, especially since the CTD issues still plague me. On the other hand, I haven't gotten permanently stuck yet (touch wood), although it's been a close call several times.

 

[homerdog]

noclip?

 

[ERP]

Running with the LAA flag set seems to have solved my CTD issues.
I prefer Skyrim to Oblivion, but still rank Morrowind as the best of the 3.
The UI is positively horrible, but it doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game.
I'm playing a destruction Mage and it's been trying at times, but doable 60 hours in.
I thought the thieves guild quest line was probably the best of the guild quest lines.

I need to get back to the main quest line.

 

[KimB]

I also still can't figure out how to undraw a bow, which you can do in Dark Messiah, so I shoot arrows into the ground and pick them up (edit - apparently there is a button for this).

Yeah, you just press the "draw weapon/hide weapon" button and it undraws the bow. Same with spells you're in the middle of casting.

 

[orangpelupa]

anyone know how to stop playing skyrim? (i know, weird question)
already trying hard to stop playing but cant, it messed up my bedtime and study time... (been weeks now)

@homer

noclip saved me when i got stuck inside invisible wall lol
glad got the PC version not the xbox, wondering how can i noclip on xbox when stuck in geometry haha.

@xatnys
thanks a lot, i never know there a help menu. THe game never mentioned it for me.

i guess my mind getting "dumbed" because most game i played force "turotial" so obviously and high "funneled" gameplay.

 

[KimB]

Running with the LAA flag set seems to have solved my CTD issues.
I prefer Skyrim to Oblivion, but still rank Morrowind as the best of the 3.
The UI is positively horrible, but it doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game.
I'm playing a destruction Mage and it's been trying at times, but doable 60 hours in.
I thought the thieves guild quest line was probably the best of the guild quest lines.

I replayed Morrowind a fair way through not long before starting up Skyrim, and I have to say, in my opinion Skyrim is such a huge advancement it isn't even funny. The problems with Morrowind:
1. Travel is just way the hell too slow at first. You can speed it up significantly once you get the boots of blinding speed, but that's basically a cheat. In Skyrim, travel is pretty quick from the start, which is nice. Also, the sprint button is fantastic!
2. The leveling in Morrowind is very twinky and artificial. The amount of power you can gain by being careful about which skills you level up is just plain nuts. Oblivion was the same way. Doing away with the main stats makes the leveling feel much more organic, and I'm not spending nearly as much time worrying about which skills I'm leveling up.
3. The combat in Morrowind is really, really bad. The missing all the time even though your sword goes right through the enemy just feels wrong. While Skyrim certainly isn't as good as some other games out there (Dark Messiah comes to mind), it is vastly improved over previous installments.
4. The alchemy in Morrowind was way overpowered, and the interface has improved by leaps and bounds in subsequent games. I like the game mechanic in Skyrim of having the player discover the effects of various ingredients.
5. Enchanting in Morrowind was very twinky (like many things in that game), in that there was a sudden and dramatic jump in power between lower-level soul gems and grand soul gems. It definitely feels much more natural in Skyrim, especially the discovery aspect (though that can be a bit frustrating if you can't find an item that has the effect you want), though I do think the double effect bit at skill level 100 is overpowered.

Anyway, overall I just don't see what Morrowind has to offer that Skyrim doesn't. At most Morrowind has longer quest lines, but they're also much more boring. So I don't really see that as a benefit.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

anyone know how to stop playing skyrim? (i know, weird question)

It was easy for me. I used a friends Steam account for a week trying to get into the game. It was beautiful but ultimately shallow and lacking of many of the things I loved in pre-Oblivion and especially pre-Morrowind TES games. I was prepared to order it up until I actually spent some time with it.

I compared it to the past TES games that I loved (Arena, Daggerfall, and a somewhat lesser but greater extent Morrowind), and found the whole thing lacking.

I understand that people like it as a "game."

But for me. I fell in love with TES: Arena and TES: Daggerfall because it was a Fantasy Medieval "Simulation." Call them games all you want, but that's what they were. A fantasy simulation where you could do almost whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted, however you wanted.

Starting with Morrowind, they've been constantly dumbing down each new interation of the frachise. Removing simulation elements. Removing freedom of doing whatever. Morrowind at least accompanied the removal of options and character developement by vastly improving the graphics and making more locations unique. I could get with that.

Oblivion was an abomination that I just don't want to touch on. And while Skyrim takes a few steps forward, it then leaps hundreds of steps backwards.

The locations are stunning at times. The dialog is sometimes good. As a game, I'm sure there's a lot to like.

But... And there's always the But...

The utter lack of many of the simulation elements that I loved just completely makes me hate and loathe the game. And the wretched UI and horribly botched key binding system just futher pushes the game into obscurity for me.

Maybe the mod community will be able to do something to make this a true Elder Scrolls game, but considering what they have to work with, they have a mountain of work ahead of them. And right now I honestly can't be bothered hoping...

/sigh...
SB

 

[Daozang]

I am totally amazed by the level of detail Bethesda puts into these huge games. That's the draw for me. It is the most impressive gaming escapism there is IMO.

I think that's it, right there.
We can take apart these games, and find a million flaws, but all those elements together, make up something beautiful.
I can't think of anything that is flawless, sometimes I think, it's those flaws that sell this huge world to me.

I have to comment on the Dark Messiah thing.
I really like that game, but I don't think that we can compare.
Skyrims combat could have been volumes better than it currently is, but comparing it with an action game (with few rpg elements) is IMO unfair.

 

[Daozang]

But... And there's always the But...

The utter lack of many of the simulation elements that I loved just completely makes me hate and loathe the game. And the wretched UI and horribly botched key binding system just futher pushes the game into obscurity for me.

Maybe the mod community will be able to do something to make this a true Elder Scrolls game, but considering what they have to work with, they have a mountain of work ahead of them. And right now I honestly can't be bothered hoping...

/sigh...
SB

I can't comment on Arena, as I never really actually played it.
Dagerfall, although amazing for its time, was a game with 1/10th (yes I'm sure it's a lot less) of the assets of modern games, and the size of Great Britain...
Game development has evolved since then.
Yes, you could do anything. You could even break the main quest by killing NPCs that were a part of it.
It really was something of a simulation.

But now, a game like that wouldn't pick anyone's interest. And a game like that done right (given the high expectations of video game players including myself), in my opinion, cannot be created. It's easy to do mounted combat the way Daggerfall did, but I'm not sure that it would sit well with most of us in this day and age!
I'm not even sure that I'd like to play a game like that. Perhaps if I were a student again, with "unlimited" time on my hands...