Talon Graphics

Geeforcer

Harmlessly Evil
Veteran
I don't know if you remember the surprising Nvnews post regarding a new company called Talon Graphics. After several months of silence, there has been a sudden flurry of activity on x3dfx board (...) as well as a short article on Xabregamers, which is pretty much a summary of the information posted on x3dfx (again, ...).

http://xabregamers.free.fr/modules/news/article.php?storyid=19

The Apocalypse line of graphics cards will be very impressive. We actually had to flip the card to where the processors are facing up. This is because of the size of the heatsink & fan combinations. We know graphics cards are not made like this because of heat problems between the card, and the CPU, but we are have a heatsink & fan design that will desperse the heat away from the CPU of most motherboards. The fan will actually be a dual fan (like on the Russian Tu-95 Bear Bomber). The clocks for the Apocalypse cards will be nearly double what the GeForce 4's are. With our new memory architecture you can see at the most 3 - 4 times the fill-rate of a GeForce 4.

The Anti-Aliasing for the Apocalypse 1500 will be at 16x (using the Selestec[tm], a new form of FSAA). Also, the Anisotropic Filtering is going to have the option of at least 128-tap. The blurring issue will not be a problem. Take 3DLabs 16x Anti-Aliasing on the Wildcat III for example, but without blurring.
Transform and Lighting will definetely be implemented in hardware, and so will Pixel and Vertex shaders.
3dfx T-Buffer is not dead. The one addition to the die is a space for a form of the 3dfx T-Buffer (TG-Buffer). Yes, we at Talon Graphics are fans of 3dfx. The first video card any of us ever owned was a 3dfx product.
Also on our list is surround-gaming features up to 5 monitors for a true surround-gaming experience.

As for the size of the card. The Apocalypse 1500 does have four processors. The length of the card will not be 30cm like the Voodoo 5 6000. The Apocalypse 1500 will be wide though. Our design for the card is different, and should not be any longer than a Voodoo 5 5500. The Apocalypse 1000 will be no longer than a GeForce 4. The Apocalypse 500 will be around the size of a Radeon 8500.

Here's some more specs:
Apocalypse 1500 - 4 chip SLI 512MB RAM (16x A-A)
Apocalypse 1000 - 2 chip SLI 256MB RAM (12x A-A)
Apocalypse 500 - 1 chip 128MB RAM (8x A-A)

Chip design is nearly complete, and board design is in full swing. I will be finishing the chip design this month (hopefully), and helping Josh finish the board design over the next 3 or 4 months. Than, it's on to silicon. Produce the drivers, and put the card into production. We're working hard on this project. I do want to stress that no other video card will be designed like this one, and look like this one.

We are hoping to have a design ready for production in one year, or less.
There's only one major issue that needs to be taken care of. That is getting the rights to use SLI from nVIDIA. Otherwise, we'll run into lawsuits, and so on. We want SLI because we believe that it is very effective, and our plan on how to use the technology will seriously increase the performance of the chipset. The SLI technique we're going to use can avoid buying a patent from nVIDIA. That is not going to be a problem either. Our implementation, we believe, will increase performance on older, current, and future programs.


Here is some other information from the message board:

Yes, Talon Graphics is re-designing the Apocalypse card. How do I know this? I'm one of the chip & board designers. When it is under way you will be surprised. I will try to update everyone of our progress as I can. We're only a 4 man team, and working as much as we can on the project. All of us are making as much effort to produce this card as possible. The card design will be one never implemented for any add-on card before. It will not look like your usual video card for some specific reasons .


This is all I will tell you of the card. The processors, and the RAM are going to be clocked so high (Almost double of what current graphics cards (GF4) have) that we had to design a rather large custom heatsink&fans, and one other minor thing to make the board able to run efficiently, and not take up other slots on a motherboard.

I think the money that we are allocating soon will give us enough to take care of fab, and all of our designing needs.

Question: What programs do you need to design a Chip?

Answer: I use professional graphics programs. That way I can go into the chip in detail... I actually started with Microsoft Paint. I am currently using CorelDRAW 10, and Corel DESIGNER 9.

As for SLI, I know it would be illegal for us to use SLI. We will be in discussion with nVIDIA later for the rights to make an SLI board.
 
Question: What programs do you need to design a Chip?

Answer: I use professional graphics programs. That way I can go into the chip in detail... I actually started with Microsoft Paint. I am currently using CorelDRAW 10, and Corel DESIGNER 9.

i'm not knowledgable at all about chip design but i'm surprised that microsoft paint could be used for that ! and even the corel software...
 
The first video card any of us ever owned was a 3dfx product.

Also on our list is surround-gaming features up to 5 monitors.

I actually started with Microsoft Paint.

And finally...

The fan will actually be a dual fan (like on the Russian Tu-95 Bear Bomber).

You do know that the Russian Tu-95 IS an actual aircraft bomber, right? http://militaryaircraft.20megsfree.com/tu95.html. Then.. x3dfx is believing this, it's getting posts on websites.. I didn't think I'd ever actually find a situation where I can truthfully say this - but it's so funny I forgot to laugh. I'll just laugh later when everybody realizes this. I'm sure the folks at Talon are choking on the floor and out of breath. :)
 
I actually though that the whole thing was quite funny, a welcome departure from the perpetual ATi Vs Nvidia discussion we seem to be locked in.
 
I just made a similar post on the x3dfx board.

Honestly...When I first read that bit about using Microsoft Paint...Um...Hello? Microsoft Paint?? To design a chip? That's utterly ridiculous...

I mean, it goes well beyond ridiculous...

The sad thing is the fact that the x3dfx community, if you will, are some of the most loyal & die-hard followers I've ever seen. For some of these duded, it would appear as if you would have to pry their Voodoo 5500's from their system before they would ever think about upgrading to an ATI/Matrox/nVidia board...And these guys are swallowing this stuff up...

The mere notion of using 3dfx terminology...T-Buffer...SLI...V5-6000 references (board length)...

But what is even more ludicrous is the idea that they're going to plow through the supposed SLI design...which would have to be done @ the chip level...and only then, do they think they will be able to work out something with nVidia...Hello again? Does anybody actually believe that nVidia would _ever_ license out any of their IP to a competitor...? Regardless of size? No way.
 
I have been browsing the x3dfx forum since it's inception...Just like I have been doing @ matroxusers....just like I have been @ Rage3D...and many others that have since died.

I like to get a broad idea on what people think...how they see things shaping up...what's important...issues/problems/etc.

About the only 3D board that I haven't had in my place over the last couple of years has been the PVR Kyro1/Kyro2...
 
LOL

I think it's quite possible that all their designs actually are done in MSPaint. I'm not saying that it's possible to design a chip in such a program, but that if they have anything, then it's likely not more than a few block diagrams and a drawing of how cool the board will look.

I have a strong feeling that if someone showed that TalonGraphics guy a real GPU design, he would just stare on it for a while, say "no we're doing graphics hardware, not software", and give the VHDL/Verilog source back.

I believe that even the average Beyond3D buzzword combiner would do better than that.


http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame81.html
(Btw, thanks for the link to that site msan_ewu.)
 
Typedef Enum said:
I have been browsing the x3dfx forum since it's inception...Just like I have been doing @ matroxusers....just like I have been @ Rage3D...and many others that have since died.

I like to get a broad idea on what people think...how they see things shaping up...what's important...issues/problems/etc.

About the only 3D board that I haven't had in my place over the last couple of years has been the PVR Kyro1/Kyro2...

Type...nahhhh..back to Lewis vs. Tyson ;)

Win..for the good guys :p
 
More quotes:

Yes, I know the Corel programs are not the greatest in the world to use, but right now that is all I can afford to get. I'm planning on funding to be available VERY soon. That way I can buy better programs, and a better machine to design, and back-up with.
I said the processor may be finished this month for the reason of getting funding for our research, that is the only way it will be finished that soon. I will tell you all straight out right now that funding currently is a problem, but will not be shortly. If I do not get the funding on the date I expect then everything will be pushed back, but that only allows us more time to perfect ourselves, and with the specs for this card you don't have to worry about nVIDIA out doing us.
I know the blurring for 16x Anti-Aliasing would be horrific, but we are using a new form of Anti-Aliasing that we have come up with.
The SLI technique does not have to be purchased from nVIDIA. Our form of SLI does not require us to purchase the patent. That will save us money there.
Back to the processor design finishing may be two months, but the board design is coming well, and should be finished on time.
We have a very high chance on getting funding from a graphics board retailer that is highly anti-nVIDIA, I'm not saying what company it is.

So I ask you please, do not put down the programs we are using at this current time because that is all we can afford. I have put my personal machine (which I made to be a powerhouse) to use as the designing only machine. I'm working on the chip as we speak, and I hope that it will be finished soon.
Please, do not put down our forms of doing things, when we have unique ways to do them that have not been seen as of yet.

I personally am I very determined person, and I have chosen to NOT be a another BitBoys. I will never be another BitBoys, and I can guarantee you that. You will see a card branded by Talon Graphics, and it will be called the Apocalypse. That, my friends, is how it will be. Rather or not you support us in any form is your choice, but I will continue on until this card is completed, and put out for the entire gaming world. I pray that I can finish on the schedule I have, and I will try my best to do it. Even if that involves taking night after night without sleep. I will complete this board. Every time someone has told me it couldn't be done I have done it, and I'm not about to stop now.
I will check back later for any more comments/suggestions/questions.

Ryan Warner
Talon Graphics Lead Chip & Board Designer

And...

Gentlemen,

I am one of Talon Graphics designers. I came up with the idea in the first place, and worked long on a idea, and chip that would even be capable of doing what I want to do. This is no prank, and I grant you that I will produce a card. With or without the support of anyone in this community. I not only came up with the idea for Talon Graphics, Apocalypse, the Anti-Aliasing method, but many other ideas for our company too. Such as a different, and what I feel to be more effective form of SLI. BitBoys are never going to make a product that we'll ever see, but I am. That is a guarantee.


Ryan Warner
Lead Chip & Board Designer

LOL.
 
This is such a load of shit...honestly, I can't believe this guy really thinks that anybody will believe this stuff.

The Corel thing is just bad enough...and this is supposedly the lead designer...But what exactly is one supposed to take away from his forum threads?

So far, he has used some widely understood terminology...T-Buffer...SLI...3dfx...Antialiasing...and smacks it all together to somehow make believers out of people.

I haven't heard a single idea/concept that, in any way, leads me to believe that this individual is capable of pulling such a feat...Heck, I don't get the feeling that this guy is even capable of developing _any_ sort of hardware/software....much less a GPU that's capable of making nVidia quiver.

Am I alone?

BTW, I'm shocked @ the schooling that Lewis put on Tyson...It really looked like Tyson was just confused from the 2nd round on...But that was the best pay-per-view that I've ever subscribed to.
 
AFAIK, using tools like CorelDRAW or MSPaint to design chips or circult boards isn't entirely impossible - it's more that they are extremely inconvenient tools to use for such purposes (except for trivial designs) - as you have to draw every transistor by hand with no error/sanity checking other than manual inspection. Given enough time, you might be able to design a chip around the complexity of an Intel 4004 - drawing ~2000 transistors by hand is doable, but that's about as far as it is practically possible to get with this class of tools.

Twide the clock speed of a Geforce4 requires rather careful and labor-intensive design, which costs lots of time and $$$ - if these guys cannot afford more serious tools than CorelDRAW, it's probably safe to assume that their design hasn't proceeded beyond the block diagram phase yet.

Also, it sounds like their 'Apocalypse' card would violate the AGP spec in a big way with its chip/heatsink placement. Why not just do AGP PRO? Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if they are completely unfamiliar with the entire AGP standard.
 
just out of curiosity: how expensive is it to produce/tape out a GPU? (just the producing... not the [more expensive?] R&D)
 
I have heard that each spin costs ~ 1/2 Million....give or take...It probably is even more expensive when you're using the latest process technology, however.
 
Isn't it funny how anyone can go onto a forum these days and pass themselves off as the next gods of 3D? :D

Two small points that nobody hasn't checked yet.

(1) The name Talon Graphics is already owned by an art company.
(2) The name Apocalypse is also already owned by PowerVR/Videologic for an old chip that they did.

Oops! Nice try chaps, come back in 10 months time - the joke will make more sense then ;)
 
Neeyik said:
Isn't it funny how anyone can go onto a forum these days and pass themselves off as the next gods of 3D? :D

just as funny as the noise over my dial-up line (damn, 23 crc and 2 frame errs in 20 min!)

Two small points that nobody hasn't checked yet.

(1) The name Talon Graphics is already owned by an art company.
(2) The name Apocalypse is also already owned by PowerVR/Videologic for an old chip that they did.

Oops! Nice try chaps, come back in 10 months time - the joke will make more sense then ;)

whats the point to check on something which is an apparent and complete nonsense? even if the guy declared he worked for 'ATI' and the project name was 'r300.(3)' it wouldn't have been more credible.
 
Oooooh come on! Give them some credit. Look they said words like "antialiasing" and "fillrate". They mentioned that it was better than a GeForce4. Surely those are the words of serious people? ;)
 
I don't know if it's hilarious or sad that there's still people believing him.

I know the blurring for 16x Anti-Aliasing would be horrific

Huh???

I have chosen to NOT be a another BitBoys

Chosen not to be a real engineer?
 
mat said:
just out of curiosity: how expensive is it to produce/tape out a GPU? (just the producing... not the [more expensive?] R&D)

Depends on the size(.13u, .18u, .25u, etc), and a couple of other options.

A complete mask set of .13u is close to $1M US. .18u is about half that, .25 about half that again.

It depends on how many layers are required to route all the wires for your chip. Some of the masks in the set are much more expensive, others are cheaper. For many changes, you can get away with only changing one mask out of the 20 and it will only cost about 10k-50k in .18 depending on which mask, other, more extensive changes require you to change several masks, or the whole set if you're completely unlucky.

There are low cost options known as shuttles(http://www.tsmc.com.tw/download/enliterature/cybershuttle_bro_2002.pdf). Essentially, the FAB runs a shuttle every so often sells off part of the mask to different customers to share the cost. This will cost anywhere between 10k and 50k for the entire mask set, but you are tied to the shuttle schedule and only get your share of the die, plus there's a lot of wasted die on the shuttle because they have to carve it up differently. I think you can expect to get 50-100 die out of a shuttle run. You can use this to work the kinks out of your design, and get the jump on the latest process. TSMC, for example, offers .09u shuttles now.

A wafer costs about $2k US, but that varies quite a bit depending on who you are, how full the fabs are, and whether or not you brought the fab rep to a good enough nudie bar. The cost doesn't vary too much with process(otherwise there wouldn't be much cost benefit from going smaller).

Some fabs will offer free masks to switch to their fabs in attempt to get business, but those offers dry up when the fabs are full (like now).

Finally, if you want to go really cheap, you can prototype on FPGA. You won't get the speed, but you can verify the logic design (though not the timing). Even FPGAs can be pretty damn expensive for an individual hobbyist.

Then you have to package it and test it, the cost of which can be anywhere between 10-50% of the total cost of the chip. (Note: I said "test", which is something you must do for each chip, not "verify" which is what you do to the design to make sure it is correct)

VLSI ASIC design is not something an individual does as a hobby, or even small companies can do without seed money.
 
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