Switch 2 Speculation

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Goodtwin, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. Lalaland

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    547
    This is it though with 1 & 2 being true 3 doesn't even matter. I mean the Switch misses out on all sorts of advanced rendering techniques today so who cares if they don't have them tomorrow either?

    We're long past the launch hype when people thought Switch would get major 3rd party titles just like the PS4/XB1, it happens but is the exception not the rule. The Witcher 3 is something of a high water mark for these efforts and it is already has markedly lower visual quality than PS4/XB1 but it doesn't matter because portable Witcher. As PS5/XBSn kicks off the same will be true although to be honest I suspect the bigger issue for Switch will not a lack of comparable GPU features in the next gen but the lack of CPU grunt.

    I should have been clearer on my timelines, I'm not expecting a Switch 2 for at least 3 years so this purchase might effect that somehow but yeah in the near term this changes nothing for Nintendo
     
    #201 Lalaland, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
    DSoup, Picao84 and BRiT like this.
  2. Goodtwin

    Veteran Newcomer Subscriber

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    641
    Switch isnt selling huge numbers based on the current gen ports it receives. They are nice to have, icing on the cake, but its games like Animal Crossing and Zelda Breath of the Wild that have propelled Switch into a smash hit. So thinking the Switch 2 needs to be competitive with the Series S just doesnt line up with what history has taught us. Nintendo handhelds have smashed its competitors every time, and were pretty much always less powerful than competing portables on the market. Even if Microsoft or Sony release a new portable with superior hardware, it wont matter because Pokemon, Mario, Zelda and Animal Crossing wont be there. Switch 2 will be shooting for base PS4 levels of performance. Plenty of power for Nintendo's IP's, and will make plenty of PS4 ports nice and easy.

    Rumors surrounding a Switch Pro model have been around since Switch launched. Journalist write about it, but they havent had any legit sources. Its all just rumors. There might be a new model, but I doubt its a Pro. I could see something more like the 3DS XL upgrade rather than a PS4 Pro performance upgrade.

    Question for those in the know, the A57 CPU cores in the Tegra X1 use the Armv8-A language. The newer A78 Arm CPU's also supports this language, does this mean that the A78 would pose no issues with backwards compatibility?
     
    #202 Goodtwin, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
    DSoup and Lalaland like this.
  3. Frenetic Pony

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    256
    It's the same thing, the A is just dropped or added, seemingly at random.

    Running the numbers... you know I don't really know how so many games were actually able to run on Switch that came to the bigger consoles. The optimization was truly impressive, but no matter how I run it the progress for Nvidia's improvement in performance per watt just doesn't show enough to really do a lot for the GPU in the next Switch. Since Maxwell and 2015 the efficiency has tripled, maybe. Really it's less, the 9xx versus 2xxx series has plenty of one to one benchmarks to look at, and even if a 3080 manages it's "about 30% above a 2080ti" average over a number of games... well that's still less than triple. That just puts the Switch HD from it's super low clocked Tegra X1 to... a Tegra X1 at max clockspeeds. Not the greatest, even assuming another 3 watts for TDP from better cooling and a bigger battery the whole thing will just be underpowered. Hell maybe they can do a lot better than that at the low end, somehow. Or not, because the Iphone 6 had a better GPU than the Switch judging by downclocking from the OG Nvidia Shield tablet benchmarks.

    I know, I know! But the tablet ran at over double the speed of the Switch, and well... here's one of the benchmarks, less than double the speed of an iphone 6:
    [​IMG]

    But the potential speedup for the CPU does a lot better. The PS4 and XBO had underpowered CPUs even at launch, true. But surprisingly there's Geekbench 2 numbers showing so much as a 865+ (high clocked A77s) run over twice as fast as the older consoles CPUs do. Even assuming that's roughly the same the A78's might do that's still pretty good from a dev perspective. Same with a lot of other components. Modern DSPs can probably do something close enough to the XSX's audio one, Nvidia does do very well with AI obviously, eUFS 3.1 even has basically the same performance as the XSX's SSD if it comes to that, and though they'd probably go for something cheaper even the older standards do over 1gbps.

    It's just too bad Nvidia hasn't met their own sky high PR, I'd really been hoping the Switch 2 could knock it out of the park. For reference the iphone 11 runs this bench 5x faster than the 6; and that's an advance of only 4 years instead of 5.
     
    #203 Frenetic Pony, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
    Goodtwin and Tkumpathenurpahl like this.
  4. Lalaland

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    547
    https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/compare/13620128?baseline=13091144

    I see this claim a lot and it's complete guff afaict, it usually relies on Geekbench scores which is a benchmark that at best is useful at a given moment in time. Now to be clear the current Geekbench website does not even surface scores for Playstation or AMD Jaguar generally, I found this Playstation run via Google as their own search results filter it out. There are multiple suspicious signs straight from the off, the Shield has more RAM bandwidth than the PS4 Pro? Any scores run on Playstation must necessarily have come from jailbroken units running barely held together Linux builds. A lot of general test suites like these will flatter ARM devices because they test features ARM devices often have dedicated silicon for accelerating (photo manipulation, etc), finding a "pure" CPU test is almost impossible. Even with all these caveats the Jaguar with it's franken-Linux still are within the ballpark of the Shield with it's actual Android build.
     
    Goodtwin likes this.
  5. Frenetic Pony

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    256
    I did want more benchmarks, but it's really, really hard to find benchmarks that overlap the old Jaguar APUs and modern day Arm stuff. But I did find a few old benchmarks people did of them, not on the playstation but with the same Jaguar Cores. Had to normalize for clocks and cores, but fortunately that seemed to be fairly linear for geekbench scores.

    If anyone can find anything else for the old Jaguar cores that overlap with A77s I'd love to see it, because I could hardly find anything else (Kraken exists but is mostly single threaded right?)
     
    Goodtwin likes this.
  6. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,919
    Likes Received:
    7,834
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Random plug: There's a pretty awesome GDC presentation about porting The Witcher 3 on the CPU & memory side of things:

    https://gdcvault.com/play/1026635/-Witcher-3-on-the
     
    BRiT, pharma, orangpelupa and 5 others like this.
  7. Lalaland

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    547
    There really isn't, I've searched long and hard myself, the problem is the Jaguar stopped being a viable product in the market (excepting PS4) long before any kind of ARM v8 product was on the market. It's frustrating as the more reliable x86 benchmarks are not available on the ARM side and geekbench (which for all it's flaws is the best option ARM side) is not available on a Jaguar device that is fully supported either.
     
    Goodtwin likes this.
  8. Goodtwin

    Veteran Newcomer Subscriber

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,163
    Likes Received:
    641
    That doesn't seem like it accounts for newer manufacturing process related improvements or does it? The Tegra X1 saw a substantial improvement going from 20nm to 16nm FinFet, around 40% more power efficient I believe. I think the max clock speed also bumped to 1.2Ghz instead of 1Ghz. Even sticking with a Tegra X1 shrunk down to 7nm, that may allow for clock speeds triple what the Switch currently runs, and now we have Xbox One performance in a portable. Obviously im hoping for something more substantial. However, I dont expect anything exotic here. Probably 512 GPU Pascal cores running around 900Mhz in portable mode and 1.5Ghz in docked mode, four Arm A7* CPU cores clocked around 1.8Ghz, 128 bit memory buss with 8GB of LPDDR memory and 512GB of on board memory storage. Basically, it will end up being a direct evolution of the Tegra X1. It will be considered withered tech when the Switch 2 launches, and that is a very Nintendo thing to do.
     
    Lalaland likes this.
  9. Frenetic Pony

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    256
    Sadly, literally just going from Maxwell numbers to Ampere directly, so this includes efficiency gains across everything, arch and manufacturing process combined. At 4k a 3080 averages solidly less than triple across multiple benchmarks compared to say, a 980ti (roughly the same power draw).

    The "1.9x" increase in efficiency per watt for Ampere was stretching as close to breaking truth in advertising law as I imagine their lawyers were comfortable getting, maybe a bit farther.
     
  10. Lalaland

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    547
    Oh you don't know nVidia's lawyers, they are very comfortable with tacking close to the wind
     
    Frenetic Pony likes this.
  11. Rootax

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Location:
    France

    It's really great. So they used Cuda for some physics, which was a first on Switch, aaaannnnd they used the CP2077 audio "engine" instead of W3, because it takes less memory... And a lot of optimisations, it's really impressive.
     
    Goodtwin, BRiT and orangpelupa like this.
  12. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,536
    Likes Received:
    1,905
    Goodtwin and TheAlSpark like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...