steveOrino
Regular
I suppose not even Valve believed in their own bullshit.
STEAMing Pile...
- Thread starter Grall
- Start date
I suppose not even Valve believed in their own bullshit.
aaronspink
Veteran
Except he didn't sell any assets. He had a mod that USED assets of another mod if it was installed. It did not require the other mod nor did it package the other mod. And no, they don't become the property of valve, you still own the assets, Valve merely has a non-exclusive right to distribute.
Well esp when the community is so stupid that they can't even determine when theft actually occurs in the first place...
Billy Idol
Legend
That's just the thing though, for someone to make money, someone else has to pay money. So we will end up paying more money for our games, and more specifically, paying for things that historically have been free. That doesn't sit entirely right with me at least. It's profiteering off of one of the last bastions of idealism. It's valve flying the flag of capitalist opportunism, where everything costs money, nothing is free, and if you don't have money you don't deserve shit.
Honestly, that's just baseless speculation.
In reality, I don't see why that would be the case. Why would a mod suddenly gather more attention just because you have to pay for it? If valve is going to say, give up store front page realestate, they could have done so anyway if they just wanted to. Good, popular mods would sell games in of themselves even if valve isn't directly earning anything out of it. But no, this is opportunism at work, where you don't do nothing unless there's something in it for yourself as well. Nothing but corporate sociopathy, really.
"Fair"? A bigger friggin share than the modders themselves, and for doing no work whatsoever? And what is the original devs doing to deserve a share, at least valve is hosting the mods, and providing storage space and bandwidth. If the devs are going to get paid again for work already done, then why not simply void the "end user agreement" each time you play through the game. Make you have to pay for it again to get another playthrough. The moral difference would be marginal at best...
What is good: modders can still release their mod for free if they want to, right? No one forces them to use the Steam platform (At least I hope so...can publishers and dev force modders to use Steam??)
It is speculation that mods on Steam get more attention...right. Just speaking of my personal situation: a Steam mod I would use, from another site not because it feels insecure to me.
I thought the percentage is down to the publisher? Hence why I said we will see if publishers handle this new oppurtunity well. I agree though, 25% for the modder is not fair. It should start at 50% by default imo.
The whole work is still based on the work of the dev, right? No Skyrim mod without Skyrim. I don't know how mods work to be honest, but I could easily imagen that some parts of the original codebase are still in use by every mod, even in total conversions .
So imo, if a modder makes money with his mod, it is imo not completely unmoral that the dev gets a (tiny!) part of it...but not the majority of the money of course.
steveOrino
Regular
The NDA was in place to prevent the interested/uninterested parties from conversing. It's what I would do if I wanted to make sure I had all the leverage dictating the terms of the agreement. That way, all of the modders I contacted to contribute content to the debut of the curated workshop can't seek opinions from the community to perhaps demand better terms for themselves. If they truly cared about the modders making money then Valve/Zenimax would have publicly announced it beforehand. Its good business depending on your ethical view of good business.
But if they think I am buying that they are for modders "earning a living" then all you need to look at is the image I posted above.
Look, I can't tell mod creators what they can and can not do with their content and time. And everyone one is going to have an opinion either way but to view this any other way then Zenimax wanting a steady flow of income from content creators is ignoring reality.
In addition, for them to sell modders/endusers on the notion that modding could somehow be better than it is or was because of monetary compensation... Please. TES modding seemed to be doing pretty damn well for the past decade.
As its been written many times, this current system only makes mods with quick ROI profitable so I seriously doubt we will be seeing many (if any) Expansion size, professional quality mods better than what has been done in the past for a pathetic 25%.
The way its being marketed is bullshit, period.
steveOrino
Regular
Modding Skyrim or any TES/Fallout game from Morrowind on up works via 2 main components.
1. The assets: Scripts, Meshes, Textures, sound files, etc (can be lose files or packed in compressed archives called BSA files)
2. The plugin that actually makes the assets visible in game: ESMs and or ESPs
Unless you are using SKyrimScriptExtender and .dll plugins then there are no executable binaries involved.
TES plugin files are the most important because they work by inserting or modifying existing records to get changes or content in game. For instance, say I want to modify a stock skyrim sword to do 30 units of damage instead of 20. I would find the sword I want to modify in the Skyrim.esm file (the master plugin) with the Creation Kit modify it to my liking then save the changes to a new plugin with just those changes to the sword. To make sure that this new plugin overrides the changes from the Skyrim.esm I have to set the new plugin I just made to load after the Skyrim.esm.
The problem with modding a game like TES is that the plugins are almost never self contained meaning they always have to rely on changing the Master plugin in some form to get the content in game. This is why compatibility patches and considerations have to be made when using many mods together because there is almost always multiple record overrides/conflicts in any given mod load out. These patches usually made by the enduser (rarely because of the learning curve), 3rd party modders and or the mod author (sometimes) to get certain level of compatibility between each mod plugin if possible.
With a segregated modding community, mods behind paywalls have to live with their own rules, so all the time and resources creating tools and like FNIS (That contains resources and modifies the Havok behavior files so that new animations can be added easily with other mods that do the same) can't be used in paid mods because the author of that tool and resources forbids it so the modder that adds the animation to his/her paid mod is on their own. The same with Modders making clothing for a popular free to use body models will have to use the low resolution stock body... So on and so forth.
These are only a few of the complexities when dealing with a divided modding community, all the hard work making extensions and tools to fix the shortcomings of the original game now cause even more issues especially when using a large assortment of different mods together. An end user with popular free mod X wants his game to be compatible with paid mod Z but since the author of mod X doesn't have access to mod Z they can't help fix conflicts for the enduser and will just have to ask the author for Mod B to make a patch for the mod (if they are willing)..... And this isn't even considering compatibility issues between two or more paid mods, I just hope the enduser knows how to create his own patch and or knows for a fact that all those mods they spent money on work together.
The people in charge of creating this new Workshop model either had no clue how the TES modding community worked and or didn't care.
Either way, for the people in the know and have been modding and working with the TES series since Morrowind I am going to have an informed, personal view as to why this new system is detrimental to what was working so well in the past. Using multiple mods together and making sure everything worked the way it should was hard enough, this is going to make it 100 times worse. Once again, when the entire community was one big free resource pool, everyone benefited from it. The situation with those same shared tools and resources that were used in the past to everyones benefit is now under a cloud of uncertainty because of the entire legal quagmire that has been created. If this is supposed to make modding better/easier than I certainly don't see it.
I can see the other points, but I don't know where this comes from. "Ceases its ownership to Valve" is probably a misreading of the conditions.
And IANAL, but someone who doesn't actually hold the rights to the assets surely cannot legally transfer those rights, just like selling stolen goods does not actually take ownership away from the person the goods were stolen from. Third parties uploading mods can't affect the ability of mod creators to use their own assets in whichever way they like.
While that's true you could also argue that the original material is already paid for. So far, where developers included mod tools in their games it was on the premise that it would increase the value of the game sold. If mods are treated as a separate revenue stream then that perception might shift.
green.pixel
Veteran
That would make sense if TES games were coming out every 2 or 3 years, not the current twice a decade schedule. Maybe the higher ups at Zenimax are driven by
the usual logic of the next quarter report, not by the actual way their games sell? Since in the latter case they would surely know that mods encourage long-tail sales. Looks like they want their cake and eat it too.
Billy Idol
Legend
If devs can make money from mods...maybe we see more mod support in games in future?
green.pixel
Veteran
So? Those games are built on knowledge accumulated through millenia. The owners of the company making the game are profiteering by privatising part of what one bearded German called the "general intellect", which includes collective knowledge and social cooperation in all its forms, from science to practical knowhow,
and extracting rents from the use of information, software and hardware. Who should pay whom?
Mod tools make selling things like weapons and character skins harder for devs
Bethesda addresses the controversy
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
I'd have to agree. This all would have been a lot less salty if the modder got 50%.
After 13 years of creating modding tools for their fans, and 5 years since Skyrim was release, now they decide they need to make money for all that effort? Bethesda you made a lot of extra money because of having those tools.
steveOrino
Regular
Its over anyway (for now). They admitted they didn't think this through. I am shocked quite frankly, I guess the community outpouring was enough for them reconsider.
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Interesting. So, unsurprisingly, games with paid mods generally get more mods made and generally better quality mods as a percentage of owners of the game.
Shame that player feedback has removed this as an option for people putting their up on Steam Workshop (the only way I'll ever use mods anymore since I just don't have time to dick around with the way various games do modding) for Bethesda games. Not that I use mods generally anyway (again that whole time issue). Especially when mod quality is so variable.
Regards,
SB
Wait, what? They actually said that? Holy shit, unbelievable conceit. Beth made money off of Skyrim like they had a direct pipeline from the Federal Reserve Bank's printing presses, and they never ever bothered to fix even the most basic of bugs in that game, like the labeling inconsistency when remapping buttons for example (or a host of other - some quite gamebreaking - issues.)
steveOrino
Regular
Not to mention all the community created tools and patches to fix their buggy pile of shit long after they abandon it for new titles.
This is just for Skyrim alone off the top of my head.
SKSE Team - TES games have always had awful scripting functionality without this work many of the top mods would not be possible.
FNIS - Havok behavior manager and resource patcher (without this automated tool adding new animations would be difficult especially with many mods that have to alter the behavior files to insert their respective animations)
NIF Tools team - Bethesda never lifted a finger to help create NIF (The mesh format TES and other net immersive engines use) import and export tools for Blender or 3D Studio Max and without their selfless contribution creating new mesh files would be next to impossible.
The BOSS/LOOT team - They create a mod load order tool that uses community feedback as well as heuristics to help people solve mod plugin conflicts so their games work properly.
The ANK team - Chinese group responsible for the HDT physics extension so modders can now add physics collisions to items in game had have them interact with the the game world that wasn't possible with the Creation Kit.
Sheson - For his memory patch that fixed Skyrims buggy memory block allocation method that would result in CTDs and or infinite loading screens once the stock 256 primary memory block became full making heavy modded games playable.
ENB (Boris Vorontsov) - For his ENB series modified directx mod that added advanced rendering effects, rendering fixes and video memory fixes.
Skyproc patcher - another mod plugin compatibility program to help create patches for mods by reading specific records from all plugins.
TESXEdit team - The premier plugin editor, cleaner, merger to help modders and enduser create, modify, view ESP/ESM plugin files quickly and easily without using the Creation Kit.
And since Skyrim's built in mod manager is basic to say the least.
Mod Organzier - Swiss army knife mod manager and profile manager
Wyre Bash - Another tool for mod manager with a special feature called Bash that checks every plugin file for special records and combines them in one big patch to improve mod compatibility.
Not really a tool but a special mention.
Unofficial Skyrim Patch team - They document and fix game/quest breaking bugs that Bethesda never fixed even after many patches as well as tackle NPC, world/interior space and other glitches.
So as you can see, the community (English, German, Korean, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, ect) has made its fair share of tools to make everyones life easier for mod creation and they never ever asked a penny for it or for Bethesda's help. I hope that helps illustrate as to why TES modding community is so unique compared to any other game modding community and why collaboration is so important to its decade long success and growth.
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
Valve once again showing why they're the undisputed leader in online distribution for videogames.
It's great to see companies listening to customers and acting accordingly. It took them 5 days, which is IMHO a perfectly acceptable time to solve things out.
"We're taking 45% of each sold mod because erm.. this is what other people do and.. erm.. modders are still making some money out of it.. derp."
Completely forgetting that Steam takes those 45% but assures tech support, QA and QC for each mod, whereas Bethesda just gobbles money out of nothing.
And if this is "misreading of conditions", then I guess Valve's own lawyers were misreading them too:
I actually think this is true. They couldn't get a hold on tens of thousands of community-made mods that were already sitting there for free. Whoever had contributed to the mods, didn't take into consideration from the beginning that money would be involved, and that at some point they had to think how to quantify the contributions from each person.
If the option to pay for mods had been there from the moment the game was released, the shitstorm would've been about Bethesda's 45% take, which would still be ridiculous given the conditions.
As it was, the tech support for the mods is in no man's land, which is a huge concern if you're dealing with paid content.
I for one wouldn't mind if Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls VI brought support for paid mods from day one, as long as the conditions were equivalent to DOTA2 and TF2 mods.
But Bethesda needs to think really hard if they want the mod development kits in their games to be either an eventual cash cow or a Unique Selling Point for the game. They can't have both, not by taking 45% in exchange for nothing, at least.
If the response in their blog is indication of how they'll act in the future, they're in for a disappointment in future sales.
It's great to see companies listening to customers and acting accordingly. It took them 5 days, which is IMHO a perfectly acceptable time to solve things out.
"We're taking 45% of each sold mod because erm.. this is what other people do and.. erm.. modders are still making some money out of it.. derp."
Completely forgetting that Steam takes those 45% but assures tech support, QA and QC for each mod, whereas Bethesda just gobbles money out of nothing.
Already posted in this thread, but here it goes again at point 6, "User Generated Content".:
And if this is "misreading of conditions", then I guess Valve's own lawyers were misreading them too:
I actually think this is true. They couldn't get a hold on tens of thousands of community-made mods that were already sitting there for free. Whoever had contributed to the mods, didn't take into consideration from the beginning that money would be involved, and that at some point they had to think how to quantify the contributions from each person.
If the option to pay for mods had been there from the moment the game was released, the shitstorm would've been about Bethesda's 45% take, which would still be ridiculous given the conditions.
As it was, the tech support for the mods is in no man's land, which is a huge concern if you're dealing with paid content.
I for one wouldn't mind if Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls VI brought support for paid mods from day one, as long as the conditions were equivalent to DOTA2 and TF2 mods.
But Bethesda needs to think really hard if they want the mod development kits in their games to be either an eventual cash cow or a Unique Selling Point for the game. They can't have both, not by taking 45% in exchange for nothing, at least.
If the response in their blog is indication of how they'll act in the future, they're in for a disappointment in future sales.