Starfield to use FSR2 only, exclude DLSS2/3 and XeSS: concerns and implications *spawn*

This is not merely a technical discussion however. This discussion wouldn't have been getting the attention it has if this was merely developer preference, if someone is coming in here claiming 'lazy devs' for not implementing DLSS along with FSR and Andrew is offering technical reasons why it's not such a simple copy and paste, that's perfectly reasonable. People are up in arms because AMD themselves are the ones who have reinvigorated the speculation that the lack of DLSS was due to a financial agreement with the publisher rather than a prudent technical choice by the developer. Andrew is not proving any clarity on that, or rather saying people are 'eating up their narratives' - implying that their opinions on this are at least in part due to being manipulated.

You can advocate for an open-source framework for reconstruction while also being concerned about backroom deals that block a competitors currently closed solution, in fact I'd say it's weird that you would use the former to deflect from the latter.
I think we're dangerously heading to the point where a sweeping segment of the community are readily getting themselves swindled with propaganda ...

If similar events like these become more numerous as time goes on, are you and the others going to absolutely remain adamant in these backroom deals being your scapegoat indefinitely rather than potentially acknowledging that developers are *deliberately* making the choice to not integrate the said technology based on their own ongoing consensus in spite of their technical partnerships ?

As more time passes, I believe that it is inevitable to see that more opinions will change over time and not inescapably for a more positive outlook that everyone here wishes to see ...
 
Sure, maybe their personal philosophy and being given funding that forces them to adhere to that philosophy lines up perfectly! :)

:ROFLMAO:

If similar events like these become more numerous as time goes on, are you and the others going to absolutely remain adamant in these backroom deals being your scapegoat indefinitely rather than potentially acknowledging that developers are *deliberately* making the choice to not integrate the said technology based on their own ongoing consensus in spite of their technical partnerships ?

Isn't this whole debacle about the correlation between AMD partnerships and "developers making the choice". How come they're not making the same choice in absence of the partnership?
 
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So if this is the main argument - that NVIDIA is now a middleware provider - then they should be treated like any other middleware provider in this aspect. If someone says they aren't using Havok because they want to develop their own physics system (for whatever reason!) no one would claim it was "ridiculous in 2023 for a game to not support Havoc". Similarly for graphics tech does anyone claim it's ridiculous to ship a AAA game without using clearly superior technology like Nanite?
If there was such a thing as a Havoc accelerator which was by far the most popular physics accelerator on the market... there absolutely would be posts claiming it was ridiculous to not support Havoc.
 
I think we're dangerously heading to the point where a sweeping segment of the community are readily getting themselves swindled with propaganda ...

🙄

Isn't this whole debacle about the correlation between AMD partnerships and "developers making the choice". How come they're not making the same choice in absence of the partnership?

Indeed, is there a single game with FSR2-only that wasn't sponsored by AMD? Stunning coincidences abound!

You know how you tamp down on speculation that exclusion of a certain technology is being driven by the marketing budget of a competitor rather than what was the best fit from the developers perspective? You don't have your marketing department make that exclusion part of the support agreement in the first place.

Despite the feeling from some here that this is just a happy coincidence, obviously AMD feels the odds of just happening to partner up with developers that are fierce open-source advocates (at least, in terms of reconstruction tech) are too low, hence they wouldn't bother with tying the exclusion of DLSS to the partnership. Making the stipulation that FSR2 must be included as part of the agreement is completely expected of course, the problem is that options are seemingly being forcibly restricted.
 
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Isn't this whole debacle about the correlation between AMD partnerships and "developers making the choice". How come they're not making the same choice in absence of the partnership?
If DLSS doesn't widely proliferate in the future, would you still think that these "technical partnerships" materially played an ultimate role in the downfall of the said technology ?

At what point do you stop the finger pointing and start plainly accepting an increasingly growing viewpoint that's being held more commonly ?
 
At what point do you stop the finger pointing and start plainly accepting an increasingly growing viewpoint that's being held more commonly ?

When AMD feels there is no point to make DLSS exclusion an ask of their partners I guess? Pretty simple. They were given an opportunity to dissuade any 'finger pointing' when asked by wccftech, and instead just amplified it.
 
Essentially Nvidia are saying; "if you want the best upscaling tech, you have to buy our product" while AMD are saying; "we can't deliver the best upscaling tech so we're going to try and stop everyone from getting access to it".
To be fair, they aren't stopping everyone from using DLSS. Starfield's system requirements only call for an nVidia 1070. That means all of the 10 series and 16 series nVidia users won't have it, nor the AMD users, nor the Xbox users. And not because of mean ol' AMD, but because those cards simply don't support it. I might be remembering it wrong, but I do believe the most popular graphics card on Steam's hardware series is a 16 series GPU.

Making the stipulation that FSR2 must be included as part of the agreement is completely expected of course, the problem is that options are seemingly being forcibly restricted.
Would any company want to have a marketing agreement with a product that uses a competitors technology that makes their tech look bad? I'm sure it's happened in the past, and I'm sure people who paid for a marketing deal weren't happy about it.

We'll see soon enough how Starfield turns out. Honestly, I'm betting it will be CPU limited most of the time anyway, so FSR won't even be useful. So it is a bummer we won't get DLSS3 Frame Generation. But who knows. Maybe it will be included in the Starfield GOTYE, Special Edition, Silver Edition, Complete Edition or Anniversary Edition. Or maybe it will be DLC.
 
We'll see soon enough how Starfield turns out. Honestly, I'm betting it will be CPU limited most of the time anyway, so FSR won't even be useful. So it is a bummer we won't get DLSS3 Frame Generation. But who knows. Maybe it will be included in the Starfield GOTYE, Special Edition, Silver Edition, Complete Edition or Anniversary Edition. Or maybe it will be DLC.
While not an official implementation DLSS3 will be available during early access with a mod similar to those used for Star Wars: Jedi Survivor.
As reported on the PC Gaming subreddit, modder PureDark, who modded DLSS 3 support in multiple games such as Elden Ring, Star Wars Jedi: Survivor, Skyrim, and Fallout 4, recently stated how they will manage to get at least DLSS 3 support added to the game during its early access period, adding DLSS 2 support as well down the line.
 
When AMD feels there is no point to make DLSS exclusion an ask of their partners I guess? Pretty simple. They were given an opportunity to dissuade any 'finger pointing' when asked by wccftech, and instead just amplified it.
I am to insinuate that the dissent from those developers won't matter at all to you until then ? (AMD are still going to be doing technical partnerships even after DLSS is gone) I have a feeling that you're going to become bitter as larger parts of the industry's beliefs keep diverging from your own ...

The idea that being there are opponents to the said technology isn't exactly a 'fringe' concept anymore whether backroom deals or no ...
 
I am to insinuate that the dissent from those developers won't matter at all to you until then ? (AMD are still going to be doing technical partnerships even after DLSS is gone) I have a feeling that you're going to become bitter as larger parts of the industry's beliefs keep diverging from your own ...

The idea that being there are opponents to the said technology isn't exactly a 'fringe' concept anymore whether backroom deals or no ...

Can you point to some examples of this dissent that’s not associated with backroom deals?
 
Can you point to some examples of this dissent that’s not associated with backroom deals?
I have a feeling that we're not going to see any meaningful outcome between our exchange since your opinion hasn't changed much when we covered this exact topic last time. Other than that watch closely as to how the future will unfold and maybe then things may finally get interesting ...
 
@Andrew Lauritzen wasn't wrong when he said he was opening up a can of worms there :ROFLMAO:

Not really?

They are basically two sides of the same coin.

Integration of DLSS comes at a cost in which the benefits are not realized by AMD owners. Why would AMD feel compelled to finance its support? As an AMD GPU owner, why would you ever want AMD to monetarily support features exclusively tied to Nvidia hardware? Wouldn't you as AMD GPU owner want every dollar invested by AMD going towards making your experience the best it can be?

Lack of integration of DLSS comes at a cost for Nvidia owners as well as they can't take advantage of hardware provided by their GPUs. So its only natural Nvidia GPU owners would hate any developer or pubs engaging into these types of agreements with AMD.

My opinion is that neither AMD or Nvidia are in the wrong. Nvidia should be free to create proprietary technology and AMD should feel free not to support that technology in any form or function. There would be no DLSS (a very worthwhile tech) without Nvidia's proprietary practices but we would be stuck with only GSync if AMD didn't try to compete and nullify the need for such technology.

This whole argument seems predicated on the assumption that AMD would either have to actively fund inclusion of DLSS in their sponsored game, or it wouldn't be included at all. I don't think that's the case at all. The majority of the games funding in these deals still comes from the publishers and so I see no reason why they couldn't include DLSS and XeSS at their own cost rather than AMD's.

This isn't a matter of AMD not funding the inclusion of DLSS (of course they wouldn't), it's a matter of them paying developers/publishers not to include it even when they otherwise may have done.

Also we're heavily focused on DLSS here which because it's not available on AMD GPU's is polarizing the argument, but everything said about DLSS applies to more advanced RT implementations as well. But in this case, AMD users - or at least high end ones actually do lose out from AMD practices here because they are able to run those more intense RT effects, but AMD certainly seem to be 'encouraging' developers they partner with to shy away from implementing such intense effects for..... obvious reasons. So as far as I see it AMD users should be as concerned by these practices as Nvidia ones.

To be fair, they aren't stopping everyone from using DLSS. Starfield's system requirements only call for an nVidia 1070. That means all of the 10 series and 16 series nVidia users won't have it, nor the AMD users, nor the Xbox users. And not because of mean ol' AMD, but because those cards simply don't support it. I might be remembering it wrong, but I do believe the most popular graphics card on Steam's hardware series is a 16 series GPU.

Everyone has the option to purchase an RTX GPU so strictly speaking they are stopping everyone from at least having the option of using DLSS 😉 But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I should have worded it as "they want to prevent anyone from getting access to the best upscaling tech"
 
Indeed, is there a single game with FSR2-only that wasn't sponsored by AMD? Stunning coincidences abound!

Yes, there are quite a few, albeit mostly AA and indie games. Although I guess it comes down to how you determine if a game is sponsored? I don't recall Anno 1800 being sponsored by AMD and it doesn't have DLSS. I just remember that they were one of the first to implement FSR and have stated they have no intentions of ever implementing DLSS.

There's also games that are AMD sponsored which have both FSR and DLSS (like TLOU2).

There's also games that have DLSS but not FSR (like Sackboy). So it's not like Sony cares about forcing a partner to allow multiple upscaling techs. Why aren't we crying about games that don't even allow many gamers (even NV GPU owners) to even use any upscaling tech unless they own specific graphics cards by a specific IHV?

I mean at least if it has FSR only everyone with a GPU can use it versus a game with DLSS only where only specific GPU card owners can use it.

I could certainly see there being additional financial incentives if a company were to implement only DLSS or only FSR. Neither NV or AMD's statements from earlier in this thread preclude that. I mean, a partner being free to implement competitor's tech is completely in line with a partner also getting more money if they "choose" to not implement a competitor's tech.

Regards,
SB
 
Graphics programmer from Nixxes has had his say on the whole DLSS/FSR issue.

And we've heard similar noises from a number of other professional game developers.

The excuses a few people here are trying to make here are weak. If you're already doing FSR2, doing DLSS2 is not gonna be some big effort. Basically the only developers not doing this seem to be totally coincidentally AMD-sponsored titles? :/
 
And we've heard similar noises from a number of other professional game developers.

The excuses a few people here are trying to make here are weak. If you're already doing FSR2, doing DLSS2 is not gonna be some big effort.
I haven't seen anyone seriously arguing otherwise. The issue here is not really related to the implementation being difficult or anything... as noted once you've set up the appropriate inputs to one of these algorithms they are mostly the same. Note as well that this is another reason why the "Streamline" thing is kind of irrelevant and IMO the main purpose of it is to actually cement the notion of a closed-source IHV-specific upscaling algorithm behind a binary wall into the future rather than help anyone implement anything more easily.

Which is - of course - my primary issue here. I am fine with the current situation insofar as we are also actively working towards standardization. Otherwise I am going to continue to argue that any developers should be well within their rights to choose a principled stand of not including proprietary tech in their own renderers without taking flak from the press for it, in the same way as they are well within their rights to choose to develop their own rendering tech rather than using an available rendering engine, regardless of the result.

That said, I have no reason to believe that is the case in this specific situation and it does seem likely that a business deal is primarily responsible, which certainly sucks.

@Andrew Lauritzen wasn't wrong when he said he was opening up a can of worms there :ROFLMAO:
I knew I'd regret it and I do, but I also feel strongly about keeping the PC platform more open than consoles so some of the broader comments rub me the wrong way 🤷‍♂️

Anyways we've got some new DF content out now and I'm starting to see the discussion become circular. I think we've really heard all the relevant opinions at this point so probably time to start ramping this topic down. Thanks for keeping it civil!
 
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I am to insinuate that the dissent from those developers won't matter at all to you until then ? (AMD are still going to be doing technical partnerships even after DLSS is gone)

I don't have a large problem with technical partnerships where the developer is given assistance to integrate a vendors technologies that are additive. That is the difference here. The agreement is stipulating that a proven technology - one that currently produces superior results on 85% of the market and is used widely - specifically be excluded due to that partnership. There's a distinct difference.

If FSR2 is adopted by developers as the default standard due to their own volition, as I've said 100 times now, that is wholly different than a mandate from an IHV.

I have a feeling that you're going to become bitter as larger parts of the industry's beliefs keep diverging from your own ...

You have a very odd way of speaking about this topic, stop trying to clumsily psychoanalyze people. We are discussing products, not prophecy. You're not Kojima, please stop implying how I will be ashamed by my words and deeds.
 
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Yes, there are quite a few, albeit mostly AA and indie games. Although I guess it comes down to how you determine if a game is sponsored?

They are listed as sponsored by AMD. It's a marketing tool, they make it quite clear.

I don't recall Anno 1800 being sponsored by AMD and it doesn't have DLSS. I just remember that they were one of the first to implement FSR and have stated they have no intentions of ever implementing DLSS.

Isn't Anno 1800 just using FSR1 though? Spatial upscalers aren't exactly relevant to this topic, of course if a game has no temporal reconstruction method then adding a spatial upscaler is trivial - I'm talking about games that have implemented temporal reconstruction but purposely choose to avoid DLSS and just use FSR2. The work involved to incorporate FSR2 or DLSS to a game initially is far more involved than adding in FSR2/DLSS to one or the other after the fact, if it took a month+ of work to add in every subsequent reconstruction method then devs only using one would be far more justifiable.

I'm talking about games that use FSR2. I genuinely don't know the count if, I believe Scorn is one game that is FSR2 only (and it actually works quite well with in that game btw, the reconstruction is the least of its problems), and I don't see any AMD affiliation.

There's also games that are AMD sponsored which have both FSR and DLSS (like TLOU2).

Yes, pretty much all of Sony's ports. This is part of the reason it was more speculation that AMD has a selective licensing agreement and it's blown up now is entirely due to AMD's hamfisted response when asked about it. You're still speaking as if AMD didn't mumble mouth an answer what should have been a layup if there wasn't actually a restrictive stipulation in some cases.

There's also games that have DLSS but not FSR (like Sackboy).

Indeed!

DF has started to call out games that only have DLSS and not FSR2, and I don't like to see FSR2 excluded either - Sackboy had a ton of patches for example - they even added SER (Shader Execution Reordering)! - but they never bothered with FSR2 support which is ridiculous considering how much work they kept putting into the game otherwise.

So it's not like Sony cares about forcing a partner to allow multiple upscaling techs. Why aren't we crying about games that don't even allow many gamers (even NV GPU owners) to even use any upscaling tech unless they own specific graphics cards by a specific IHV?

We are, as has been said many times. Devs should use all 3. The measure of outrage (?) is because there is mounting evidence that one IHV actually prohibits the choice of the developer based on their co-marketing agreement. If a developer doesn't want to bother to add FSR or XESS that sucks if the implementation is weaker than what DLSS could likely provide, but if that's their choice, then welp.

I could certainly see there being additional financial incentives if a company were to implement only DLSS or only FSR. Neither NV or AMD's statements from earlier in this thread preclude that.

Oh come on. There is a chasm of difference between AMD's laughably inept phrasing and Nvidia's:

AMD said:
To clarify, there are community sites that track the implementation of upscaling technologies, and these sites indicate that there are a number of games that support only DLSS currently (for example, see link).

AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution is an open-source technology that supports a variety of GPU architectures, including consoles and competitive solutions, and we believe an open approach that is broadly supported on multiple hardware platforms is the best approach that benefits developers and gamers. AMD is committed to doing what is best for game developers and gamers, and we give developers the flexibility to implement FSR into whichever games they choose.

AMD Spokesperson to Wccftech

Nvidia said:
NVIDIA does not and will not block, restrict, discourage, or hinder developers from implementing competitor technologies in any way. We provide the support and tools for all game developers to easily integrate DLSS if they choose and even created NVIDIA Streamline to make it easier for game developers to add competitive technologies to their games.

Keita Iida, vice president of developer relations, NVIDIA

If you honestly believe those statements are not illuminating in any way, we're at an impasse I guess. I mean Nvidia literally makes a tool that makes incorporating their competitors technology actually easier. Of course they're not doing it out the kindness of their heart, they want DLSS in everything and this tool may reduce some hesitation from developers that don't want to tie their reconstruction to one vendor, it's far easier to advocate this approach when you have 85% marketshare and (often) the best reconstruction method on the market now - it's purpose is just to reduce any further hesitation to include DLSS. But it is what it is, it's still a far cry from actively prohibiting FSR with a licensing agreement.

If that was exposed or they whiffed on their response like AMD did if asked about it, they would be raked over the coals - I mean they don't exactly have a lot of stored goodwill in this area (Nvidia Partner Program anyone?), and even Gameworks - while it was additive and not restrictive - was commonly mocked and disregarded in the gaming community from my experience. Nvidia is getting dunked on the regular with their recent GPU releases, this would be more chum for the content waters if this was the case.
 
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