Starfield to use FSR2 only, exclude DLSS2/3 and XeSS: concerns and implications *spawn*

Not all deals are the same. Some deals are partial, other are full on exclusive features. AMD seems to be practicing that later type alot lately. When asked directly about it they either dodged the question or said "no comment", even after being pressed on for answers from GamersNexus, HardwareUnboxed, PCGamer, and DigitalFoundry.


Once more, NVIDIA doesn't block developers from doing this, they also provide tools for developers to implement other upsacalers, AMD blocks and doesn't provide any tools. You need to understand the distinction. There is a big difference here.
David... This is what you said

Most of the DLSS1/DLSS2 only titles came before FSR1 was introduced, or came before FSR2 was introduced (because FSR1 was simple and bad). Right now, most NVIDIA sponsored titles implement all three upscalers, like Ratchet and Clank, Spider-Man Miles Morales, Cyberpunk 2077, The Withcer 3, Atomic Heart, Dying Light 2, F1 2023, Forza Horizon 5, Warhammer Darktide .. etc.

So Nvidia offers a tool to do this easily but at the same time titles introduced after FSR still exclude it.

So one more time. FSR works on all cards. So these games that don't have FSR are excluding geforce 1000 series gamers and amd and intel gamers. But Starfield is using FSR and includes all gamers regardless of their cards
 
So one more time. FSR works on all cards. So these games that don't have FSR are excluding geforce 1000 series gamers and amd and intel gamers. But Starfield is using FSR and includes all gamers regardless of their cards
Actually it's currently unknown if FSR works on all cards capable of running Starfield. AFAIK FSR does not officially support cards pre GTX 1000 cards which would include GTX 900, 700, 600 cards and the same is likely true for AMD cards prior to a certain cutoff. I imagine you might say they are irrelevant because those cards don't meet the game requirements, but minimum requirements have not stopped me from playing BG3 (w/o FSR) using a GTX 780 classified.
 
Actually it's currently unknown if FSR works on all cards capable of running Starfield. AFAIK FSR does not officially support cards pre GTX 1000 cards which would include GTX 900, 700, 600 cards and the same is likely true for AMD cards prior to a certain cutoff. I imagine you might say they are irrelevant because those cards don't meet the game requirements, but minimum requirements have not stopped me from playing BG3 (w/o FSR) using a GTX 780 classified.
Maybe this varies by game. I swear I used FSR in No Man's Sky on my GTX970 while my 6700XT was being repaired.
 
So to sum up.
On the one hand, it's up to the developer to decide if they are going to implement any, or all, of the image reconstruction technologies available, and it's public knowledge that, even if they have a deal (and help/funding) from nvidia, no one is forcing them to exclude one over the other.
Their proprietary tech works only on their cards.

On the other hand, things are a bit murky, since we know there is a deal, but can't be certain as to what it entails, because AMD refuses to comment on the situation.
Their tech works on almost anything, regardless of vendor, but is considered generally inferior.

NVidia has a long history of anti-consumer practices and general fuck-ups.
It's not so hard to develop a disapproval for them as a company.
That doesn't mean though, that when AMD does it, they should immediately get the benefit of the doubt.
They have a similar past after all.

It should be case by case...
 
AMD, Bethesda and Microsoft refuse to comment. They're all held accountable, not just AMD. They all agreed to monies and NDAs.
It is, what it is...
I'm not going to lose sleep over it. :)

Would I like to have DLSS 3 with my Starfield?
Sure...
But, such is the nature of the industry, whether I like it or not.
I just hope the game won't be one of those, that desperately need DLSS 3 to run with decency.
I'm not holding my breath on that one either...

With a bit of patience, I'm certain the game will be just fine... ...at some point... :p
 
Not all deals are the same. Some deals are partial, other are full on exclusive features. AMD seems to be practicing that later type alot lately. When asked directly about it they either dodged the question or said "no comment", even after being pressed on for answers from GamersNexus, HardwareUnboxed, PCGamer, and DigitalFoundry.


Once more, NVIDIA doesn't block developers from doing this, they also provide tools for developers to implement other upsacalers, AMD blocks and doesn't provide any tools. You need to understand the distinction. There is a big difference here.

Neither of them "block" it, as evidenced by the existence of both AMD and NV sponsored titles having multiple technologies.

However, both of them probably offer incentives if a developer only offers their version of the technology as evidenced by DLSS or FSR only titles. For the developer it may be seen as more "palatable" or acceptable to only offer FSR since it works on all GPUs of all manufacturers while it's likely seen as less acceptable to only offer DLSS since it only works on select GPUs from one IHV.

Additionally, a developer may be against using any technology that is only available on select GPUs from one IHV meaning their only option at that point between DLSS and FSR is to offer FSR.

Regards,
SB
 
So Nvidia offers a tool to do this easily but at the same time titles introduced after FSR still exclude it.
These are a few and far in between games, and there is no exclusion here, we don't live in an absolute world, you won't fault a company for one lazy dev who implements one upscaler and forgets the rest. But you certainly hold the company responsible when every dev they deal with does this. Which is the case for AMD.

as evidenced by the existence of both AMD and NV sponsored titles having multiple technologies.
The AMD sponsored ones with DLSS (just 4 games) are partial deals, where AMD couldn't get the dev to support their features exclusively. The rest (the majoriry) are games with full exclusivity, where they forbid the develper from ever implementing the other upscalers, even after many months have passed. The refusal of AMD to answer the press about this issue is a clear sign for anyone that they are doing something fishy. Their refusal is unprecedented, in the past even when NVIDIA was implicated they always answered the press and made steps to rectify the situation or clear up the confusion and tell their story. AMD always did the same too. But what we have here is complete radio silence that is implicating enough.
 
The AMD sponsored ones with DLSS (just 4 games) are partial deals, where AMD couldn't get the dev to support their features exclusively. The rest (the majoriry) are games with full exclusivity, where they forbid the develper from ever implementing the other upscalers, even after many months have passed.

I love how you like to present your opinion as fact. :)

The refusal of AMD to answer the press about this issue is a clear sign for anyone that they are doing something fishy. Their refusal is unprecedented, in the past even when NVIDIA was implicated they always answered the press and made steps to rectify the situation or clear up the confusion and tell their story. AMD always did the same too. But what we have here is complete radio silence that is implicating enough.

A refusal to answer a question isn't an admission of guilt. The prison system in most 1st world countries would explode if that were the case. ;)

In this case, both AMD and NV answering that question doesn't really answer the question. Contractually blocking something isn't the same as offering incentives to not include something. So you can say to the press that you don't "block" another technology while at the same time you're offering huge incentives not to include that thing. Likewise, a PR department (or more likely the lawyers on retainer) might feel it's unwise to say that they do not "block" something as the terminology is vague enough that it could potentially be confused with paying huge incentives to not include something.

So the answer to the question of "Are you blocking X technology?" is a relatively useless question.

Regards,
SB
 
XeSS may not be as performant as FSR2 but it is an option.

It's why I specifically only mentioned DLSS and FSR in that case, getting into XeSS starts to get into economics (often a developer choosing to go a single technology route is also one on an extremely tight budget) as well as cost benefit tradeoffs of performance, quality and implementation. Inclusive to that is the time involved to QA each technology if the development house bothers to QA. :p That's going to add on multiple 10's of hours of QA testing if they are even minimally thorough.

WRT - XeSS it also brings into question how easily it can be implemented on console and how performant it is on consoles. Both of those trump image quality when a limited platform is in question.

That's also the other factor when considering a developer who, on a tight budget, has decided they can only dedicate the time and effort to implement one technology even if implementing the others is only a few more hours each. Those few more hours could be potentially 1 or 10s of bugs found and addressed before a game ships. And with how most AAA games are released under a microscope these days a developer (well the producer of the title and/or accounting department) on a limited time and cost budget is likely going to feel that FSR is their only choice.

FSR being available on console is honestly probably the biggest reason it's often chosen as the only solution for 3rd party developers.

Regards,
SB
 
After looking at this GDC AMD upscaling presentation it seems like FSR 2 involves much more developer work implementing in a game than either XeSS or DLSS. If a developer did have a tight budget there are better choices than FSR 2 on the PC. Time required to implement a quality product is likely the reason why many games ship without or are not upgraded to FSR 2.

Including a performance option for the console was likely the major consideration though at the expense of reduced visual fidelity for PC gamers.
 
Including a performance option for the console was likely the major consideration though at the expense of reduced visual fidelity for PC gamers.
There is only 30fps mode.

This would've been a good title to actually get XeSS running on XS with.
30fps, generally likely to be cpu bound.
 
However, both of them probably offer incentives if a developer only offers their version of the technology as evidenced by DLSS or FSR only titles.
I'm pretty certain that nvidia wants both. It's just too good marketing to pass by either way. ;)

you won't fault a company for one lazy dev who implements one upscaler and forgets the rest
Here I disagree (with the word "lazy").
I'm certain no actual developer wants to release an incomplete game, in any way shape or form.
Most of the times, it's not up to them.
While DLSS is theoretically very easy to implement, it is also very logical to prioritize FSR, considering it can be used in both consoles and PC.
After that, it's up to how reasonable the publisher is, in terms of release windows, patch prioritization etc...
If the developers are in crunch mode because their game is not ready a week before release, and the publisher wants it out before their next investor call, no matter what, we shouldn't expect much...

We are talking about people that work on something very hard and complicated, because they want to make games.
I mean, a job at a fin-tech is ten times easier, and pays twice more...
 
A refusal to answer a question isn't an admission of guilt. The prison system in most 1st world countries would explode if that were the case. ;)

Oh for gods sake. How is this defense even being attempted at this point. 🙄AMD isn't on trial here, they are not under threat of imprisonment. The presumption of innocence is a fundamental principle in a democratic society because of the power of the state to unjustly rob someone of their freedom, corporations are not afforded due process to save them from the public noticing when they royally fuck up their marketing.

AMD has been given countless avenues to clear this up for weeks now. Even as incompetent as AMD's messaging has been in numerous areas, there is absolutely no rational justification for going complete radio silence on this, even from just the PR perspective (both from AMD, and from the perspective of trying to protect their partner (EA and Starfield devs) from backlash) - unless the answer is what should be blatantly obvious by now - they are indeed blocking the support of DLSS.

This is paint by number shit at this point, you don't need to drawing string from thumbtacks on a bulletin board like you're sketching out mob influence. This is well past the point of 'inference' by now, this is just noticing the writing on the wall.
 
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It makes sense that Nvidia allows support of FSR and XESS in Gameworks titles. Intel discrete cards have an insignificant marketshare so Nvidia is hardly worried about competition by allowing support of XESS. Furthermore, its advantageous for Nvidia to allow support for FSR because there is a good portion of PCs out there that house GTX cards that don't support DLSS. FSR provides a modern upscaling tech for those Nvidia users. And the notion that FSR doesn't support all GPUs is hardly a knock on FSR. FSR isn't free so if you have a card that barely provides playable framerates at the minimum input resolution of FSR then turning on FSR isn't going to magically allow an upscaled visuals at acceptable rates.

AMD has always been sore about Nvidia's push of Gameworks which is middleware with a bunch of blackbox tech that devs can't optimize on the application level nor can AMD optimize on the driver level to better support AMD hardware. DLSS represent a doubling down of that practice and a move from unoptimized performance to no feature support at all on AMD cards. You can make the argument that this is because of AMD lacking the proper cores to support such feature. But what's the chance of DLSS working well on AMD cards if they did support such technology. Probably none. XESS nor DLSS work on competing hardware with similar tech.

Yes, Nvidia offers Streamline but who likes the ideal of their software running through an abstraction layer made by their competitor. If Nvidia was serious it would have developed Streamline in partnership with AMD and Intel. Any other way invites concerns that the wide adoption of the abstraction layer can potentially represent a huge hurdle for FSR if an issue that negatively affects FSR performance, present itself in the abstraction layer in which they have little control.

Whats good for the market as a whole, and whats good for Nvidia, doesn't have to converge just because there are a ton of Nvidia users.
 
If Nvidia was serious it would have developed Streamline in partnership with AMD and Intel.

Intel apparently doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

Andre Bremer said:
"Intel believes strongly in the power of open interfaces," said Andre Bremer, VP of AXG and director of game engineering at Intel. "We are excited to support Streamline, an open, cross-IHV framework for new graphics effects. This will simplify game developers’ integration efforts and accelerate the adoption of new technology."


Regardless, you don't have to use Streamline if you're concerned about using a single vendor's middleware. Nixxes apparently has their own wrapper and still feels it's 'trivial' to support all three.

Whats good for the market as a whole, and whats good for Nvidia, doesn't have to converge just because there are a ton of Nvidia users.

Conversely, something isn't necessarily 'good for the market' simply because it's 'open'. What's good for the market is the best implementation of technology being utilized by each GPU, in a manner which is realistic for developers to support. All indications we have is that supporting all 3 reconstruction method is not an unreasonable ask - which is precisely why AMD has to stipulate the prevention of DLSS being included as part of their partner agreements.

The Gameworks comparisons don't really fit at all with this. Nvidia was not preventing the inclusion of extra effects by developers, these effects would not have existed without Nvidia providing the code in the first place. That is very different from an established, mature technology used in hundreds of games before now - one who's inclusion actually makes adding your own variant even easier as they share much of the same inputs - being contractually blocked. The very fact the decision needs to be forcibly removed from developers hands is precisely because it's not that difficult to support.

Really, no one even gave a shit about Gameworks when it was actually 'popular' at least in terms of even seeing it in games - like were Nvidia fans clamoring devs to "Please add in gameworks effects!" for new titles? They were always massive performance sinks on every GPU with incredibly minimal visual benefit. If AMD is salty about that, and feels this PR disaster is 'payback', then that just speaks even more to how incompetent they are.
 
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Here I disagree (with the word "lazy").
Yeah, I take that back, I understand priorities for developers are shifting all the time, especially now that the scope of making games became bigger and much harder to control.

Inclusive to that is the time involved to QA each technology if the development house bothers to QA. :p That's going to add on multiple 10's of hours of QA testing if they are even minimally thorough.
That argument has died already, several developers have stated quite frankly, that implementing all 3 upscalers is a trivial matter, AMD themselves boasted in the past, that implementing FSR2 is a matter of ~2 days if the game has DLSS2 already, and it goes vise versa. Hell, a single modder is adding DLSS2 to FSR2 games in a heartbeat. He is doing it now for Starfield by the way.

If Nvidia was serious it would have developed Streamline in partnership with AMD and Intel
Intel is already on board with Streamline, AMD refused to join.
 
It makes sense that Nvidia allows support of FSR and XESS in Gameworks titles. Intel discrete cards have an insignificant marketshare so Nvidia is hardly worried about competition by allowing support of XESS. Furthermore, its advantageous for Nvidia to allow support for FSR because there is a good portion of PCs out there that house GTX cards that don't support DLSS. FSR provides a modern upscaling tech for those Nvidia users. And the notion that FSR doesn't support all GPUs is hardly a knock on FSR. FSR isn't free so if you have a card that barely provides playable framerates at the minimum input resolution of FSR then turning on FSR isn't going to magically allow an upscaled visuals at acceptable rates.

AMD has always been sore about Nvidia's push of Gameworks which is middleware with a bunch of blackbox tech that devs can't optimize on the application level nor can AMD optimize on the driver level to better support AMD hardware. DLSS represent a doubling down of that practice and a move from unoptimized performance to no feature support at all on AMD cards. You can make the argument that this is because of AMD lacking the proper cores to support such feature. But what's the chance of DLSS working well on AMD cards if they did support such technology. Probably none. XESS nor DLSS work on competing hardware with similar tech.

Yes, Nvidia offers Streamline but who likes the ideal of their software running through an abstraction layer made by their competitor. If Nvidia was serious it would have developed Streamline in partnership with AMD and Intel. Any other way invites concerns that the wide adoption of the abstraction layer can potentially represent a huge hurdle for FSR if an issue that negatively affects FSR performance, present itself in the abstraction layer in which they have little control.

Whats good for the market as a whole, and whats good for Nvidia, doesn't have to converge just because there are a ton of Nvidia users.
wasn't a controversy with nvidia and physx along the lines of Nvidia buying the company and then hobbling the cpu code so any of the effects would run extremely poorly vs on nvidia graphics cards.

I am sure AMD wouldn't want to just trust me bro with nvidia
 
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