*spin-off* Always on/connected... stuff

Cjail said:
The EULA says what you can do or do not.
When we buy a game we agree with the therms and conditions and so are bound to comply.
Now what is the problem with that?
Click to expand...

I am not understanding the point of this post.

I do have issues with any DRM that prevents me selling/swapping/lending games though. If I can't do as I please with a game, is it really mine?
Click to expand...

You answered "yes"

I objected with "no"

If the "question was about whether or not limited "freedom of use" actually means to have no ownership whatsoever".

Then my answer is that the limited "freedom of use" is the consequence of having no ownership.

When buying the disc the only thing you actually own is the disc itself. The ownership of the actual content on the disc is retained by the publishers or dev. Whatever rights or freedom of use is extended to you of the game itself should not be construed as ownership.

Simply put, the disc is yours the game is not.
 
dobwal said:
When buying the disc the only thing you actually own is the disc itself. The ownership of the actual content on the disc is retained by the publishers or dev. Whatever rights or freedom of use is extended to you of the game itself should not be construed as ownership.
Click to expand...
This is true, but discs for games consoles have long been free of any practical mechanics that prevent lending or re-sale. So whether or not it's strictly legal, it is nonetheless a freedom that people are used to.

Probably because almost nobody reads software licences (or instruction manuals, or files named readme.txt). I know I don't!
 
BRiT said:
Do you own any phones or tablets? If so, have you purchased anything for them? Do you use Steam? If so, have you purchased anything for it?
Click to expand...

I simply don't understand this argument.
How do I buy a disc based android application. Please tell me. And how do I buy a steam works game that doesn't require steam. When there isn't an alternative there is no choice
 
DSoup said:
This is true, but discs for games consoles have long been free of any practical mechanics that prevent lending or re-sale. So whether or not it's strictly legal, it is nonetheless a freedom that people are used to.

Probably because almost nobody reads software licences (or instruction manuals, or files named readme.txt). I know I don't!
Click to expand...

Is there anywhere that says it's illegal to sell your copy of a game or a used car?

I would be surprised, second hand sales is a basic right and we have a thread for that discussion.
 
I can sell an Android app on disk. It's just an APK. These are freely distributable. You'd use a PC to copy it across and install from wherever you copy it to.

No idea what the discussion is here - just saying disk based Android apps is certainly a possibility. ;)
 
-tkf- said:
I am confused, what good is a disc that requires an Internet connection to work?
Click to expand...

It would be similar to the unlock keys that we have now or online passes.
We would be required to redeem or buy, in case we get the disc second hand, a key online but that's it.

Is there anywhere that says it's illegal to sell your copy of a game or a used car?
Click to expand...

Well in the EULA they say that:

You agree not to:

commercially exploit the Software;
distribute, lease, license, sell, rent, convert into convertible currency, or otherwise transfer or assign the Software, or any copies of the Software...
Click to expand...

Now while you can't sell the software you can sell the disc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
-tkf- said:
Is there anywhere that says it's illegal to sell your copy of a game or a used car?
Click to expand...
Material property rights are often well established in law. Intangibles, like software - and yes, even software that comes on a physical disc - are a more complicated proposition. They can fall the definition of material property (consult the law in your region) and end up in some legal no man's land. For example in the EU it's entirely a owner's legal right to take a backup of any software on a disc, rather undermining anti-copying disc protection. However, there's no law saying software creators (or retailers selling that software) that the software should be able to be freely copied (backed up for personal use).

So there's the law, which is typically not enforced except in large scale counterfeiting operations. Bastard software licences that nobody reads. And finally there are actual measures that prevent/enforce/limit traditional rights of ownership. Like DRM and activation keys.
 
DSoup said:
Material property rights are often well established in law. Intangibles, like software - and yes, even software that comes on a physical disc - are a more complicated proposition. They can fall the definition of material property (consult the law in your region) and end up in some legal no man's land. For example in the EU it's entirely a owner's legal right to take a backup of any software on a disc, rather undermining anti-copying disc protection. However, there's no law saying software creators (or retailers selling that software) that the software should be able to be freely copied (backed up for personal use).

So there's the law, which is typically not enforced except in large scale counterfeiting operations. Bastard software licences that nobody reads. And finally there are actual measures that prevent/enforce/limit traditional rights of ownership. Like DRM and activation keys.
Click to expand...

Well...as long as they don´t stop me from selling my used games i am ok.

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/07/03/1245200/used-software-can-be-sold-says-eu-court-of-justice
 
Shifty Geezer said:
I can sell an Android app on disk. It's just an APK. These are freely distributable. You'd use a PC to copy it across and install from wherever you copy it to.

No idea what the discussion is here - just saying disk based Android apps is certainly a possibility. ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it´s not the business model that Google Play uses, my point is that if i shop at a DD shop then i know the limitations and advantages that the services provides. Because i accept that i don't have to like them or think it´s cool or do the same when there is an alternative. Or i simply accept that for $1 and a small little smudge game i don¨t really care about the future or my "investment".

Steam is a little different, i have 240 games there, every game is depending on steam staying alive, not something i am really comfortable with :)
But it´s hard to avoid some kind of online DD/DRM if you want to play a PC game.
 
-tkf- said:
Well...as long as they don´t stop me from selling my used games i am ok.
Click to expand...
Ditto. And to be clear, most of my PS4 games have been digital purchases. But I will buy discs if a) the game if friggin(tm) (RudeCurve) huge, or if I anticipate wanting to sell the game or lend or swap it with friends.

For me, it's about having options. Maybe 1 game in 5 will be something that will offer little (or no) replay value and there is simply more intrinsic value in getting rid of it.
 
I was thinking that if each physical game contain 1 disc and 1 ultra small USB/memory-card and 2 unique activation keys that complement each other (one of them should be on the disc and the other one should be on the USB), then it would be possible to activate/deactivate digital license for physical games locally.

If a user wants to use his/her game without disc then he/she need to attach the USB to the console and put the game on it and opt in to use that specific game without disc. Then the OS automatically cut/past the code from USB to the console and the digital version is activated for the profile/console. After that you don't need to put the game on console or attach USB to it.

When you are done with that game you can put the disc on console and attach USB to it and opt out for that specific game and the OS automatically cut/past the code from console to the USB. So you can lend/sell your physical game.

The importance of USB code is that :

1) It's dynamic, which means that it could only found on console or USB at the time (it can't be on both of them at the same time) so it's not possible to use it on more than one console.
2) It's unique, so there is only one code that will work with the code on a specific disc.

Is it a good idea to have both options (physical/digital) at the same time without using internet?

Edit: And those people who don't like to buy this kind of physical games can buy their games on usual discs (1 disc, 1 activation code that attached to the disc) and don't bother with other problems.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
mosen said:
I was thinking that if each physical game contain 1 disc and 1 ultra small USB/memory-card and 2 unique activation keys that complement each other (one of them should be on the disc and the other one should be on the USB), then it would be possible to activate/deactivate digital license for physical games locally.

If a user wants to use his/her game without disc then he/she need to attach the USB to the console and put the game on it and opt in to use that specific game without disc. Then the OS automatically cut/past the code from USB to the console and the digital version is activated for the profile/console. After that you don't need to put the game on console or attach USB to it.

When you are done with that game you can put the disc on console and attach USB to it and opt out for that specific game and the OS automatically cut/past the code from console to the USB. So you can lend/sell your physical game.

The importance of USB code is that :

1) It's dynamic, which means that it could only found on console or USB at the time (it can't be on both of them at the same time) so it's not possible to use it on more than one console.
2) It's unique, so there is only one code that will work with the code on a specific disc.

Is it a good idea to have both options (physical/digital) at the same time without using internet?
Click to expand...

I think it would be better if the platforms only needed to check for licenses after 3 to 5 plays or a certain number of hours played. Once those number of plays or time were maximized the console would simply check online for DD titles licenses or the disc drive for BD based title licenses.

I am not a big used game seller so the need to have a disc in tray is an annoying inconvenience. I can't go disc anymore as just picking a controller and simply launching from the UI is a way more enjoyable and seamless experience. I bought 3 games on disc when purchasing the XB1. Those titles have a very strong chance of being the last three disc based games I ever buy.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Sounds awfully complicated for what's likely a small audience.
Click to expand...

For who? :| Users or publishers/platform-owners? Honestly it's not very complicated for users, they just need to attach a USB and put the disc on console for playing the game few times (1 or 2 times at minimum, much less than what we need to do today). But it could be complicated for publishers/platform-owners.

dobwal said:
I think it would be better if the platforms only needed to check for licenses after 3 to 5 plays or a certain number of hours played. Once those number of plays or time were maximized the console would simply check online for DD titles licenses or the disc drive for BD based title licenses.

I am not a big used game seller so the need to have a disc in tray is an annoying inconvenience. I can't go disc anymore as just picking a controller and simply launching from the UI is a way more enjoyable and seamless experience. I bought 3 games on disc when purchasing the XB1. Those titles have a very strong chance of being the last three disc based games I ever buy.
Click to expand...

It's a bit complicated, I can play many games in 3-5 plays, and many games are short enough to play their single player modes in few hours. They need a standard model for this matter.
 
mosen said:
For who? :| Users or publishers/platform-owners?
Click to expand...
Everyone. At the moment publisher produce a disc. Your system would require a disc and a USB widget at a significant extra cost. You'd then have to either supply this extra cost to every gamer, or eat into your profits, or produce a second SKU with all the hassle on inventory management trying to gauge how many consumers would want this system over the plain disc.

Then for gamers who presently put in a disc, now they'd have to put in a disc and a widget unlike any other system on the planet. It's not difficult or confusing, but it's more complex than the current norm which is the unified medium == play. Not to mention that a hardware dongle would be a prime candidate for piracy.

Sounds like too complex a system to be of real value to me. An alternative such as internet-based registration seems to be the solution to be pursued. That or a writeable component on the disc like Sony's patents, although you'd have added manufacturing costs there too. I don't really see what's in it for the publishers to go through added cost to allow gamers to play without needing the disc, so I don't see any business justification nor incentive for things to change. Such a change would have to come form the console companies wanting to add value to their platform.
 
fehu said:
Just to better understand the consequences.
Actually what is the disc / dd ratio on xbox?
Click to expand...
I haven't found any numbers specific to xbox, but EA had a few details for their own games on consoles.

http://www.gamesradar.com/ea-ceo-thinks-2011-is-the-year-digital-sales-overtake-retail/
EA in 2010: "At the end of [2011], the digital business is bigger than the packaged goods business, full stop. No questions in my mind."

http://venturebeat.com/2014/07/23/l...for-ps4-xbox-one-is-good-for-its-bottom-line/
EA in 2014: "somewhere in excess of 10 percent now for full game downloads on the Xbox Live and PlayStation network."

I'm sure DD is big business, but on console it's definitely not replacing disc. It's a complementary solution that's great for small indies, DLC, F2P, and P2W.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top