Space, the final frontier.

The main obstacle is definitely just getting up there. The economics are just horrendous with current techniques. One significant benefit of getting to the Moon would be for future space travel: the Moon would be an excellent launching platform, due to its lower gravity and lack of atmosphere. One could launch from the Moon at very high speeds just by building an extremely long magnetic levitation track, and with the lower gravity, more of that kinetic energy will remain after escaping the Moon's gravity.

So, if we could find a relatively cheap way of getting to the moon, then we'd have a relatively cheap way of getting anywhere within the solar system relatively quickly. One possible option is the space pier:
http://discuss.foresight.org/~josh/tower/tower.html

If we could get to the point where the solar system is our oyster, then there are a lot of resources out there that we could make excellent use of, some of which are very hard to find on Earth (the asteroid belt would be particularly lucrative).

Now, for interstellar travel, such things won't make a huge amount of difference. The primary benefit would be what we learn about space travel, as well as if solar system travel becomes successful, the cultural capital in continuing the exploration. After all, at some point, we will need to leave the Earth if we are to survive. Best if we don't leave it until our destruction is imminent.
 
Chalnoth said:
One could launch from the Moon at very high speeds just by building an extremely long magnetic levitation track
I was actually going to suggest that for launching from earth too. We could build a linear accelerator up the slope of a very tall mountain, perhaps in the form of a tube with a low pressure or maybe even partial vacuum in it... Not sure how well that idea would work launching PEOPLE tho :LOL:, but certainly cargo. If nothing else, a relatively small and totally reuseable lifting body shuttle with aerospike hydrogen/oxygen rocket engines could lift the crew while the vehicle hardware is launched using the accelerator.

It'd be a lot of work, building an accelerator like that, but then again, I heard that in egypt they built this huge bugger of a pyramid something like 3.500 years ago, and that it weighs ~4.5 million metric tons. Can that really be true? :p

Best if we don't leave it until our destruction is imminent.
If our house catches fire, do we actually wait until the fire brigade arrives before jumping out?

No. To ensure our survival, we should leave at earliest opportunity. Not all of us naturally, but some. If we wait too long before going, there's no way to tell that we will actually have a viable future as a species once we do leave.
 
Guden Oden said:
But what the hell is the probe supposed to DO once it gets there, regardless of if it's cheaper or not? The US mars rovers, despite whirring around up there for months, haven't covered more than say a football pitch's worth of surface, if even that much.

But you really are talking about a totally different scale of mission, it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. Saying a man could cover more area than a $800 million pair of rovers is disingenuous. Of course on any credible manned mission you'd achieve more, but you'd spend a lot more in proportion. A manned mission by its very nature is much more ambitious. $800 million gets you three men going round in circles 300km up in the sky. Has anyone actually tried spending $40-80 billion on a robotic mission?

Guden Oden said:
Flying off into outer space is dangerous, no question about that but hell, we do dangerous things all the time. I would say it's roughly 638 million billion times more likely you or I get killed in an accident while crossing the street, than either of us dying on a rocket shooting up into space. So where are your priorities, man? :D

My priorities don't really come into it. In the words of the song "the public gets what the public wants". They don't want astronaut components raining from the sky, and they aren't prepared to foot the massive bill to do these ambitious things safely. So the result is we stay stuck on this Earth until something changes (a space-race to Mars against the Chinese might just do it).
 
nutball said:
(a space-race to Mars against the Chinese might just do it).

Well we HAVE to stop them. I mean you don't want chinese take-aways all around the Solar System before Starbucks gets there, do you!
 
You know the main reason why space missions are so extremely expensive? Twofold.

First, it's because faillure isn't considered an option. It's reasonably simple and cheap to build a rocket and launch something into LEO. But the rules and guarantees wanted make everything some orders of magnitude more expensive. If we would accept that faillure can happen, we can build and launch ten or twenty space missions for the same cost of one nowadays. And the same goes for satellites: if you accept that some will fail, you can launch many more for the same price.

Insurance alone is so very expensive, that it makes more sense to build three or four than having two insured.

The second part is, that the current space agencies are heavily entrenched and have a monopoly position. And they're certainly not willing to change that. Although Nasa gets kudos for their "more and cheaper" view some time ago, but they've crawled back from that, as it turned out that (public) funding is coupled to the amount of success of the individual missions. And they didn't go far enough with it in the first place.

Then again, we would need to bundle funds to get the commercial interest on the rails, and make a lot of work explaining that cheap with lots of faillures is much better in the long run.
 
Btw, there are plenty of working SSTO prototypes that are extremely cheap compared to a space shuttle. The main reason they failed was that the Nasa (the parts of it that manage the shuttles) didn't like the competition.
 
_xxx_ said:
The Earth is not big enough for the number of people we have today, let alone in 20-30 years. We'll be a few billions more by then, so the solution is either to find alternatives or to bang our heads until the numbers go down to an acceptible level.
Ecologies are self regulating. Stick a breeding pair of rabbits on an isolated island and the population will increase exponentially until they outstrip their food and resource needs in which case the population will rapidly decline. The Earth can only sustain a certain population and when that is reached their will be a rapid slowdown in growth. We don't need to spread ourselves like a disease across the rest of the cosomos.
 
Diplo said:
Ecologies are self regulating. Stick a breeding pair of rabbits on an isolated island and the population will increase exponentially until they outstrip their food and resource needs in which case the population will rapidly decline.
True, though some people argue humans are somewhat more important than rabbits. Particulary as we ourselves are humans. Not rabbits. Sense of self-preservation and all that, you know. :p

We don't need to spread ourselves like a disease across the rest of the cosomos.
Even should we accurately be classifiable as a disease (which I believe is not really the case), our ability to spread across the cosmos IS severely limited, by the laws of physics if nothing else.
 
Guden Oden said:
Even should we accurately be classifiable as a disease (which I believe is not really the case)....
Well, I do think we should learn to look after the planet we've got before thinking about colonising elsewhere.
 
What about some alternative ways to lift stuff into LEO and explore space? I'll start.

The main consideration here is, that conventional multi-stage rockets are mostly good in lifting all the fuel they burn and the engines and fuel tanks needed to do that into orbit. Payload is at best around 6% of the total weight, and they scale very badly.

1) Like Guden Oden said: nucleair propulsion. It works and has been tested. The main disadvantages are the lack of shielding you want (radiation danger for the engineers and flight crew on the ground) and the radioactive waste that comes back down. And that you have to run them close to critical. But they work really well. Although, perhaps only useable if very spectacular faillures are an option.

2) SCRAMjets. They are tested and work, but due to the very small tolerances to the air flow through the engine and the very high stresses and temperatures you have to take faillure into account. But the performance is very promising, and they're easily converted to rocket flight when you get high enough.

3) SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit) rockets. They are tested and work, even better than most alternatives. The only disadvantage I can think of is that they scale pretty bad. Good for something up to a metric ton or so. Due to their simplicity, this will probably be the safest and cheapest option.

4) Lifters (ion drives). They are tested on small scales and work. Make a clear, horizontal aluminium foil honey comb, and put an isolated grid of wires on the top. Power it by beaming microwaves at it. The high voltage created will accelerate the air downwards. Main disadvances: never tested on a large scale, and you need large structures to lift large masses. Probably only useful to a weight of around a few metric tons, that would have to accelerate into orbit from the top of the atmosphere. But extremely cheap.

5) Large, heated hydrogen balloons. They are tested and work. Carry their fuel inside. The main disadvantage is, that I doubt you'll get much higher than about 50 kilometers in the very best case, and so need rocket power for the most part anyway.

6) Microwave powered engines. They are tested on a small scale with different mechanisms to heat the stuff and they work. Take a plane, put a large microwave receiver on the bottom (wire grid embedded as the honeycomb metal in composites), and heat air (first stage) or some electrolytic liquid (second stage) with continuous massive discharges through it, and accelerating the plasma. Main disadvantages: it's big. Especially the transmitter. And you lose all power when the beam loses sight of the receiver. But you only need large amounts of electricity to power it, and the weight it can lift is mostly limited by the energy you can beam upwards. This is for the really big stuff.

7) Laser powered engines. They are tested on a small scale and work. They work like a jet or rocket engine, in which you shine a high-powered laser from the back, directly into the combustion chamber, and use that to heat the air or other reaction mass. Main disadvantages: you need a really good way to keep the laser on focus, and they have bad efficiency, as the laser itself only has one of at most a few percent. Probably not very useful, unless we can come up with better lasers.

8) A big gas gun. They are tested and work. Take a very long barrel (probably made of composites), and pump gas in by combustion every few meters behind the projectile. And fire that projectile at the sky. Main disadvantages: It's very big; you need a fair bit of mountain for the best result, and you need a very high speed to counter the air friction throughout the remaining atmosphere. But it's very simple, operational costs are very low and it works great for dense payloads of small and medium weight. No delicate stuff, though.

9) A lineair accelerator. They are tested and work. Take a very long tube and add coils around every meter or so. Put something covered with metal inside (aluminium would work well), and accelerate it to high speed. It works like a gas gun, but you have more control over the acceleration and it scales much better. Main disadvantages: same as with gas guns. Use this for dense bulk goods, and for things that carry their own rocket engine to help counter the air friction. And a small application is using it as a thruster that shoots metal pellets at very high speed.

10) Orion. Use nuclear explosions (fission or fusion) to power your rocket engine. They aren't tested (AFAIK), but would very likely work extremely well (MUCH better than anything else), if you can keep your ship in one piece. There are two different approaches to this, depending on the scale of the explosions. The first one is like this: take a very thick buffer plate, attach massive springs and dampers, and layer those with lots and lots of other stuff to dampen the shock, throw a nuke underneath and blow it. The other variant uses an engine that consists of a chamber in which you shoot small pellets of He3/H2, embedded in glass, and have them fuse by beaming powerful lasers on it. And a third variant is like a combination of both, but uses anti-matter to power the explosion. For brute force, nothing beats Orion. And it would work everywhere, and scale extremely well. Nothing is too heavy to lift. But the practicality of it is another matter. Let alone fireing lots of nukes inside the atmosphere to launch it.

11) Ion drives. They are tested and work. They work by accelerating very little mass (an ion stream) to a significant part of the speed of light (some even very close to that). They trade mass for speed. They range from tiny to very bulky. Their main disadvantages: the thrust is very small. But they can go on almost indefinitely, and over time they can reach extremely high speeds. Good for the patient, for vector corrections and small, unmanned space craft that need a very long operational lifespan.

12) Fusion drives. They aren't tested as such, but all parts that make them work are. Still, it would be quite an engineering challenge to put them together. They function by creating a hot plasma like in a Tokamak fusion reactor, and compressing that electromagnetically to a very hot and narrow beam, at which point fusion occurs. That speeds up the plasma tremedously, and generates a lot of radiation and particles that can be used to generate electricity, as with a Tokamak. The main disadvantages are the difficulty to make that happen and keeping that very hot plasma away from it's enclosure, and the length of the tube needed to do all that. Think hundreds of meters, or even in excess of a kilometer. Still, they're probably your best bet for serious space exploration.

13) Bussard Ramscoops. They aren't tested and might not work, but they offer all the benefits of a fusion drive and unlimited fuel. They're basically a fusion drive that generates two very strong electromagnetic fields, that charge and scoop up the small amount of hydrogen available even in empty space. That would require quite some astonishing engineering challenges, and the fusion reaction would be pretty hard to accomplish with simple hydrogen, instead of He3/H2/H3. Still, while a very old idea, it's still the best one we have to conquer interstellar space.

14) A solar sail. This is tested and works. You just put a large and very thin sheet of metallized plastic into orbit, and it will be pushed away from the Sun through the impact of charged particles (the solar wind). The main disadvantages are the bulk and strength of the material needed, and that you mostly only can get away from the Sun. This would even allow for interstellar flight. The acceleration would be small, but it builds.

15) The Moon (or a moon, or very large asteroid that consists mostly of metal). This is not tested, but would surely work. Take a very large body, drill a hole through the center, install a linear accelerator in that tube, mine and fire most of it's mass through at a fair bit of the speed of light. The main disadvantages are, that it requires engineering on an extremely massive scale, and that it's single-use only. But with that, you can go anywhere inside our galaxy within two years relative time. For the impatient who have massive armies of intelligent robotic workers.

;)
 
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Diplo said:
Well, I do think we should learn to look after the planet we've got before thinking about colonising elsewhere.

Why? Conservationism makes sense in a regime of limited resources. In a hypothetical Universe where we have a semi-infinity of planets available to exploit, it makes little sense.
 
The real key is a major base in orbit, or maybe on the moon. The killer is getting into orbit in the first place.

There's Arthur C. Clarke's space elevator solution. . . . (see Fountains of Paradise). But Clarke predicted/proposed geosync satellites for communications many years before they happened, so he's certainly got the cred.
 
nutball said:
Why? Conservationism makes sense in a regime of limited resources. In a hypothetical Universe where we have a semi-infinity of planets available to exploit, it makes little sense.
And how many of those "semi-infinity" of planets are a) within feasible travelling distance of the Earth* and b) would be capable of supporting human life?

* It would take the space shuttle around 160,000 years to reach Proxima Centauri, the nearest star to Earth (apart from our Sun). Even now scientists only know of the existance of 190 extrasolar planets (ones outside our solar system). Unless you know of a way of travelling beyond the speed of light none of those planets are reachable by man and, besides, none could ever be capable of supporting life.
 
Diplo said:
And how many of those "semi-infinity" of planets are a) within feasible travelling distance of the Earth* and b) would be capable of supporting human life?

* It would take the space shuttle around 160,000 years to reach Proxima Centauri, the nearest star to Earth (apart from our Sun). Even now scientists only know of the existance of 190 extrasolar planets (ones outside our solar system). Unless you know of a way of travelling beyond the speed of light none of those planets are reachable by man and, besides, none could ever be capable of supporting life.
15) The Moon. ;)
 
Well, DiGuru, the primary problem with most of those ideas is that they're horribly inefficient in terms of energy usage. If we did find a plentiful and inexpensive form of electricity, some of the microwave or laser technologies might work. As for the nuclear ones, I think energetically it'd be vastly more efficient to have a reactor that generates power for an ion drive than to use small nuclear explosions for propulsion.

Anyway, for solar system exploration, what you really need is to find an efficient method of generating relatively large accelerations for escaping the Earth's gravitational pull. For interstellar exploration, what you need is a long-term power source that can provide essentially constant acceleration, even if that acceleration is small.
 
DiGuru said:
14) A solar sail. This is tested and works. You just put a large and very thin sheet of metallized plastic into orbit, and it will be pushed away from the Sun through the impact of charged particles (the solar wind). The main disadvantages are the bulk and strength of the material needed, and that you mostly only can get away from the Sun.
Surely there already exists a facility for getting back towards the sun?
 
Simon F said:
Surely there already exists a facility for getting back towards the sun?
Well, when approaching a star, you'd probably want to be decelerating anyway. So it would be a good thing that you could make use of the solar sail to slow down at the destination.
 
I'm always a bit miffed when i hear about mining asteroids. I mean, the minerals we'll get from asteroid will certainly help, but i don't think we are in shortage of elements like iron here on earth.
We need to look at what IS running out on earth which we will REALLY need in a few years time. At first glance, that is very simple: oil. In a few years we'll run out of it and then we'll really be screwed. Will space travel help? Will we find oil on other planets or asteroids, and then be able to take it back to use it here? NO.
The only way to get away from that predicament is to change our energy sources.

Mining from space just seems a lot more complicated than it's needed. How much would the minerals taken from space be worth? Would it be commercially viable to actually go all the way up there, mine them out and come back? I don't think it will make commercial sense any time soon, meaning, the cost to actually get there, work there and come back will be a lot higher than the worth of the materials for a long time, making the whole project absolutely useless. It's not like we're running out of iron here (just to name one)...

And simply put, that's why no one's bothering much with space travel: it just doesn't make any kind of commercial sense. It's like throwing billions in the bin, only the "bin" is a maybe-infinite vacuum. I mean, all the Mars missions were basically money thrown onto another planet never to be seen again, and seen how world economics are like at the moment, i don't see anyone rushing to keep doing that...
 
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