Sony's new CLIE with Sony built custom CPU CLIE PEG-UX50

[PC-Engine]

It doesn't exist now, but if you think PPC's with integrated 3D won't exist in the next couple years then you're kidding yourself

Ah cool, but I'll just wait 20 years and get my holographic PDA device embedded in my front tooth. Or heck, I'll wait 30 years and get one integrated with my brain

BTW it's a STUPID idea to have both get it? A keypad adds un-needed bulk. Compare that monstrosity with a PPC.

Clies, even thought they unfold, are about the same size as most PPCs (keyboard can be flipped on the back of the screen so it doesn't add any extra bulk when you don't need it) and even include features like video camera and have higher resolution screen.

BTW what idiot is going to be typing on that itsy bitsy kepad when writing is ten times faster??? ... Someone should let these people know that the stylus is included will PPC's and the handwriting recognition software too

Have you ever tried using that stylys and recognition software? Well, I do it on a daily basis (I have a PPC) and thank God I don't have to enter more than a few words every now and then, because that kind of input is *frickin annoying AND slow* After three years of usage I still constantly make input mistakes, have to delete it than re-write again, etc. If I had to input more stuff this way I would give up long time ago and learned that FITALY thing which apparently allows by far the fastest text input with stylys. The handwriting recognition as of now, is a little more than a gimmick.

Well you'll be waiting for the PSP too so that's also a couple of years

That Clie pictured above isn't very small btw and that keyboard is made for a 1 yr old

An adult would probably be typing at a rate of 3 wpm on that useless thing

"Dear Mom, hi...bye"

 

[maskrider]

Heh ! You have edited your message.

Have you seen the Fujitsu P series mini laptops? Or the Sharp Actius series ultralights?

I am certainly aware of the sub-notebooks as I have been searching for something that I think is usable as a carry along PC since 1994. Check my previous reply to see what I have now, I paid US$1800 for my first true sub-notebook Toshiba Libretto 50CT, already forgot which year I bought it, but it is a Pentium 75Mhz Windows 95 notebook.

 

[nondescript]

Sorry to drag out a older reply - my refresh rate for B3D is 1-2 days.

I agree. This is probably a warm-up design exercise for PSP.

No offense intended, but I don't understand whatcha mean. Would you consider the 486DX a "warm-up" for the Pentium4?

Ok, I'll try to say it better.

I see many similarities between this and PSP. It plays back video, sound, it has a custom processor - the closest incarnation of the "Walkman of the 21st century" we have seen so far. This is a media device - it can take stills, video and sound.

Obviously the PSP will shed some of these features, like the video camera, to keep costs down. It will also be substationally cheaper, because of economies of scale in manufacturing millions of PSPs, rather than, say, 100k Clies.

This is also one of the first products of Sony's aggressive investment in fabrication capacity. While, arguably, Sony has done some of this before - custom chips in Net Walkmans, or DVD players, or the Playstation 2, this I think, is the first time Sony has designed a integrated CPU+RAM+Peripheral Logic, a true SoC. Not only is it SoC, making production costs lower, and easier to move to more advanced fab processes, it is also a low power SoC that can dynamically change its power consumption - precisely what PSP would need.

In other words, I'm not impressed because this CLIE can do all this stuff. I'm impressed that Sony designed and fabbed their own ARM processor, with sophisticated power management, and stopped using outside Dragonball or ARM processors. I'm impressed that they put nearly the entire logic on on IC. All this is exactly what the PSP must do to keep costs down - and with this Clie, Sony shows that it can.

The PSP will probably have a radically different architechure, specialized for 3D graphics, but what is important is Sony can design a low-power SoC. That's my point.

Aside:

I'm don't have a degree in Industrial Engineering, but my guess is that many of the supply chain logistics used in the manufacturing of this Clie are similar to what the PSP will ultimately need (at a 10x-100x scale). This is a pilot program of sorts.

This is all my speculation, but I see this Clie as a dry run for the PSP.

 

[nondescript]

Compare that monstrosity with a PPC.

iPAQ h1945 - 4.37 oz

3.5" 240 x 320 16-bit color transflective TFT
Secure Digital (SD) card slot

iPAQ h1910 - 4.23 oz

3.5" 240x320 16-bit color transflective TFT with backlight
Secure Digital (SD) card slot

Toshiba e750 - 6.7 oz

3.8-inch transflective screen
Secure Digital (SD) and Compact Flash (CF) card slots
Built-in WiFi

Sony CLIE PEG-UX50 - 6.2 oz

3.2-inch 320x480-pixel screen
VGA camera
Built-in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth
Memory Stick slot
Backlight keyboard

So it's a little under 50% heavier than the light PPCs which only have an SD slot, but still lighter than the feature-laden Toshiba e750. It's screen is a little smaller, but has higher resolution. Way more features, which ppl may or may not find useful. To each his own.

Obviously the CLIE is more expensive than the PPCs, but that was never the point of this post. My point is, the CLIE is hardly the "monstrosity" PC-engine claims to be. It manages to add a camera, keyboard, and bluetooth while remaiming lighter than the Toshiba model (without the CF and SD slot though)

----------
Why these three PPC models? I went to HP, chose the first two, and then went to CNet's editor's picks to get another one.

 

[Geeforcer]

I've had Palm V, and it took we a while to get used to graffiti. Since then, I've used several PPCs, employer-issued and personal, the latest being Ipaq 2215. Once you used Transcriber, you'll never go back to graffiti. I’ve tried TG50 with built-in keyboard, but I took it back.

 

[marconelly!]

Monstrosity it's not by any stretch of imagination if you compare it with some of the PPCs, and other recent Clie models are even less so.

Well you'll be waiting for the PSP too so that's also a couple of years

Point is, if you wait few more years, you'll get something even better. However, if you need such device you'll get it regardless. If you dont need it, why waiting in the first place?

An adult would probably be typing at a rate of 3 wpm on that useless thing

Without spending months and years to learn some weird input techniques, using two thumbs for typing you can achieve higer input speeds than with any stylys based input, and make way less errors on the way. Handwriting recognition is THAT clunky. As far as I'm concerned, stylys is only good as a handheld replacement for a mouse, and it does a very good job at that.

Once you used Transcriber, you'll never go back to graffiti.

That is, if you are one of the lucky ones that can get their hadwriting to be recognized by transcriber, it's a good solution. For me, Transcriber is more useless than any other type of input PPCs provide. Even my wife that has beatutiful handwriting can't get that thing to correctly recognize words more than 50-60% of times.

 

[maskrider]

I've had Palm V, and it took we a while to get used to graffiti. Since then, I've used several PPCs, employer-issued and personal, the latest being Ipaq 2215. Once you used Transcriber, you'll never go back to graffiti. I?ve tried TG50 with built-in keyboard, but I took it back.

Seems the thread is going out of Console scope again, may be I was wrong starting a thread like this.

Anyway, the problems with Graffiti is not only you have to memorise the different strokes comparing to natural writing, the other very common problem is I've seen some hand writings of my (previous) subordinates who are very familiar with Palms looking too much like graffiti when they are supposed to write normal english letters.

 

[zurich]

Is there hand writing recognition for Asian characters yet? I can only imagine how clunky THAT would be :?

 

[maskrider]

Is there hand writing recognition for Asian characters yet? I can only imagine how clunky THAT would be :?

Yes, there are a couple of software for Palm/PPC based Chinese recognition, they work pretty well, and IMHO, they are even better than the clunky Graffiti.

But PC based (Windows based) software packages have existed quite some years already. The Palm/PPC packages are stripped ports from the PC versions.

 

[chaphack]

Back to the PSP, i been thinking, how it will go?

It is a full 3D handheld, which means higher cost to make games. As we know, gaming cost are rising with time, so this handheld will make developers taketh more cash?

What type of games are we to expect from PSP? Console ports or new exclusives. If it is the first, then are we expecting full fledged games ala the console versions or cut down versions? If it is a full game, then what makes some guy buy the console version over the handheld? Wouldnt that give studios a headache, since they are dangerously splitting their pie?
With the GBA, at least it is 2D, in which it is cheaper to make and game mechanics have to be tweaked for 2D. Essentially maketh a new experience. A cut down 3D version might just seem, a ripoff.

Maybe they will go with a new extended version like Matrix Reloaded and ETM. But i wonder how many can go that far to create 2 specific versions, especially one that runs on a new "unknown" handheld?

Just some random thoughts, don kill me.

 

[zurich]

At first I expect oodles of PSOne ports.

 

[Fafalada]

Chap,
those prices are pretty normal for higher end pocket machines. (some of the more expensive ones go over 1000$ actually). The more game oriented ones do tend to be cheaper (and less feature packed).

Someone should let these people know that the stylus is included will PPC's and the handwriting recognition software too

Point... although it's also true that decades before anyone heard the word "PocketPC" the Psion organizers and similar devices were a big thing and they all came with a tiny keyboard of this sort.
Heck, Nokia communicator (the first pic) is something of a big seller these days too.

BTW are you saying PPC's won't have integrated 3D graphics in the next couple of years? There's so many manufacturers make PPC's it's not even funny.

I was referring to comments when PPC started adding features over Palms. This is starting to look the same - within less then two years Sony caught up and started to "outfeature" PPCs with their Palm line. We'll see if it holds...

Palm OS PDA's are like Apple computers are to PCs

Well, I don't recall Apple ever owning 80% of the PC market like Palm did, and even right now when everyone is spelling doom for Palm as a company they still have a bigger market share then Apple ever had for last 10 years.
Though granted, I also think that within few years all that will be left of Palm will be a little label next to Sony sign on the machines

Btw, something vaguely on topic people... is anyone wondering how the HECK Sony comes up with these stupid model names?
I mean...
From T615, to NR70V and now... PEG-UX50... ???
These are supposed to be successive models of the Same machine???????
Hell even 3com weirdass model numerics appeared to make Some sense...
but I can't find any here...

 

[Katsura]

Model names...

Fafa. that is because these are different 'lines' in Sony's Clie product line up. ie, they are (supposedly) created for different markets/ price range/ users. In a way it is the same as Mercedes got C, E, and S class cars, the numbering combined with the letter to make up the model number.

In Clie's case:

S series: The one that started it all, this is the product Sony entered the Palm PDA market with, all S series machines are with b/w displays. Entry level machine, aimed at people who just want the bare basics from a PDA, students maybe?

SL/SJ series: The direct successor to the S, altho there was a big time gap between the two generations (at one time, the lower end of the T series filled the gap for the S line sequals), small form factor, SL is the b/w modle with only 1 in the line up and no back light while SJ is either b/w or colour.

T series: The cheap (err, yeah, cheap for Sony) middle level models designed for bussiness users or company bulk purchase (it's got that look), some b/w and some colour screens, now being retired and being replaced by...

TG series: The successor to original T series, big more upmarket, but that's cause the whole product range is being upscaled. new form factor includes flip cover.

NR series: The one that kicked up the revolution - tile/ swivel form factor was SUCH a big thing at the time, super high res 320 * 480 display. Feature packed multimedia functions with ATRAC3 music play back, fast 66Hz dragonball CPU, digital still camera. This one is aimed at gadget users and techie maniacs. The major draw back is the Palm 4 OS, a lot of the potential is not really realised with this, Sony used the form factor as a test bed for future devices.

NX series: The true arrival of the multimedia line, now powered by 200+ MHz CPU and runs Palm 5, the Palm camp is finally on level playing ground with the PPC. This is the direct successor to the short lived NR line.

NZ series: An oddity, I was considering combine this with the NX together as same class machines. In fact this is a bulked up NX machine, with only 1 model so far, it's big, black and bulky, but pretty much packs everything. It's probably a PDA for those who don't want to carry a sub-note book with them.

UX sereis: New form factor, still tilt/ swivel but in a horizontal notebook fashion, almost a tiny VAIO or penPC, a newly released line, specwise seem to be similar to NX series with few more features build in. the major difference is the form factor.

Some notes:
- The numbering generally denotes the spec/ feature set. Generally the higher the number, the more features, or more more recent it's release.

- I'd like to think NX/ NZ/ UX series to be sister lines that's in the same class (one up from TG) decended from the original NR.

- It also seems Sony denotes 'U' prefix to either smaller form factor or a difference in design to the other current lineup - ie, the digital camera U10 and U20 is a tiny form digital camera Sony makes.

Now after wrote all that I feel pretty sad!!!! Guess there's a bigger geek in me than I realised and altho I try to hidde it it still comes out to play once in a while (no realtion to the HULK)

 

[Katsura]

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5680

P.S. the divice is actually tiny. this is the prototype they showed
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5415

(the notebook form makes it appear bigger)

Reading the comments on the site makes one realise even with in the Palm camp there's fights between Sony fans and Palm fans, the human civilization os cerainly doomed

 

[PC-Engine]

(the notebook form makes it appear bigger)

Um...ok...

Also notice how the second pic shows a "fat hand" to make it seem like it's small...nice marketing illusion. I think the SONY marketing department hired a SUMO wrestler for that one

 

[PiNkY]

With regards to integration. Just open your average palm and take look how highly integrated these are. What you'll see is the MC Drangonball SOC and 1 or 2 flash ram chips and thats it. Having had a student job with requirements engineering for a large european mobile phone producer, i can tell you, its not much different there. MPU, DSP, Display Controller Ram and whatever are all integerated on a single die....

 

[maskrider]

With regards to integration. Just open your average palm and take look how highly integrated these are. What you'll see is the MC Drangonball SOC and 1 or 2 flash ram chips and thats it. Having had a student job with requirements engineering for a large european mobile phone producer, i can tell you, its not much different there. MPU, DSP, Display Controller Ram and whatever are all integerated on a single die....

Are you replying to me ?

I surely know how highly integrated those Palms and mobile phones are. Just a simple look at Sony Ericcson P800 will show almost all features are there except the big keyboard, except the 4x128bit wide load balanced memory bus, which will not exist in many handheld products.

 

[PC-Engine]

I don't want no stupid hardware keyboards on a PPC.

I want this

http://www.softspb.com/products/fsk/index.html

For those who like to use their fingers:

For those who prefer a stylus:

Both are from the same software package for PPC 8)

Who needs a built-in hardware keyboard that just takes up space? It's a STUPID idea period. SONY needs to hire new engineers.

 

[maskrider]

I don't want no stupid hardware keyboards on a PPC.

I want this

http://www.softspb.com/products/fsk/index.html

For those who like to use their fingers:

For those who prefer a stylus:

Both are from the same software package for PPC 8)

Who needs a built-in hardware keyboard that just takes up space? It's a STUPID idea period. SONY needs to hire new engineers.

Seeing only one line when you type ? How brilliant !

BTW, I don't use keyboards that don't have mechanical (physical) feedback. The soft keyboards are just damn stupid.

 

[Katsura]

So err...

I'll take a PPC with a PowerVR MBX over this anyday. Character recognition or a tiny yet bulkty keypad?

You'd rather type on a tiny, useless, no feedback, can only see a tiny line of what you typed on screen keyboard and make the screen dirty and oily, rather than use a dedicated hardware/ feedback keyboard?

There is nothing wrong with Sony's design studio, it is the way you discuess that probably warrents an early retirement?

P.S. A fat hand != a big hand, fat hand can have short stubby fingures, the dude from the first picture does not appear have fat hands either.