Sony PlayStation 5 Pro

[davis.anthony]

Gap of power consumption between 5090 and GPU of PS5 Pro will also increase a lot since Nvidia 4090 already consumes 100W more than 3090.

But perf/watt is much higher on the 4090.

My 4070ti equals a 3090 (and beats it in a lot of cases) while consuming a fair chunk less power.

 

[Seanspeed]

If the 5090 is as powerful as the rumours suggest (around 50% faster than the 4090) then there'd actually be a much bigger delta between the Pro and the top end PC's (~3x) than there was when the PS5 initially launched (~2x).

Although that larger deta will likely be reflected in the relatively larger price too.

5090/GB202 is going to be even more niche than 4090 by the sounds of it, possibly being designed specifically towards the AI market.

Though I think they're just talking in general, not peak performance gaps. Performance per dollar on GPU's is really not improving that much at all and I dont see much reason for that to change since people were all too happy to eat up insane 40 series pricing, all while a potentially $499 PS5 Pro would be offering quite a powerful full system.

 

[rntongo]

It is looking like final console will be at peak 36 Teraflops, 18 Teraflops FP32 in old terms. If they had clocked it 25MHz higher, they could have advertised it as three times the competition. Regardless, they can advertise is as the most powerful.

Yup, its going to be quite powerful actually.

I wonder if RDNA 4 RX 8800 will have machine learning upscaling hardware like high-end PS5. GPU design kind of reminds me of going back to the Radeon VII, clever way to maximise performance and yields without losing significant performance. I wonder if the next-gen Xbox will be based on a current generation PS5 GPU if they are planning to announce that within a year or so with Zen 5 so it might just be a FPS boost console rather than anything groundbreaking.

I keep on seeing this but I wonder how viable it is considering their current hw sales are terrible. The cost of creating new fixed hw that they have to support in 2025 doesnt add up. Consoles are quite expensive to develop and support.

If Sony are potentially keeping CPU on same N6 process node, it limits a proper PS5 Slim possibility any time soon or at all. They could reuse existing Slim chassis for this model if they can do a chiplet design like Strix Halo and use N4P node for the GCD. That way, they can get more economies of scale if they are targetting the same power level by using existing tooling and hardware, just brand it on packaging and plastics like Ultra 64 / N64.

I wonder if with N3E now in large volume production we could see Sony move to N3E as well. But it makes sense the PS5 pro may be the same size as the current PS5 "Slim" and we could see a real PS5 slim sometime next year.

Can see this doing really well as it reduces any PC advantage even further while delivering incredible level of performance at a great price if priced competitively. It will bring a more meaningful jump than last generation while having less competition from cheaper models and competing products. Hopefully Sony produce decent quantities and not underestimate demand. I planned to hold off upgrading my PS4 until this and GT8 was out but might be tempted to upgrade it at launch depending on if they showcase any new games and to experience GT7 in a better way.

I agree the PS5 pro will be ahit especially with GTA 6 releasing. Sony will be looking to market it with the arrival of GTA 6 so they need to produce as many systems to ride that wave. I think Xbox as well could get some boosted hw sales if they market the Series X properly. The PS5 slim as well will see enormous demand during this time.

 

[davis.anthony]

That way, they can get more economies of scale if they are targeting the same power level by un see this doing really well as it reduces any PC advantage even further while delivering incredible level of performance at a great price if priced competitively.

How so?

It's releasing around the time the next generation of PC GPU's are, so it's not going to reduce any performance gap.

 

[Charlietus]

How so?

It's releasing around the time the next generation of PC GPU's are, so it's not going to reduce any performance gap.

I'd say that it reduces the technological gap as far as features go. If a 8090 in 2028 is priced at 5000$ with a 2 meter long die, I don't think consoles can ever compete as far as power goes

 

[davis.anthony]

I'd say that it reduces the technological gap as far as features go. If a 8090 in 2028 is priced at 5000$ with a 2 meter long die, I don't think consoles can ever compete as far as power goes

Hardware features aren't really a thing these days as they're so close in terms of hardware, and developers are clever at solving problems (Software VRS using the MSAA hardware is a prime example)

 

[Charlietus]

Hardware features aren't really a thing these days as they're so close in terms of hardware, and developers are clever at solving problems (Software VRS using the MSAA hardware is a prime example)

I would consider ai acceleration and enhanced ray tracing acceleration to be hardware features.

Having a competitor to dlss and better ray tracing hardware is a big step forward.

 

[davis.anthony]

I would consider ai acceleration and enhanced ray tracing acceleration to be hardware features.

Having a competitor to dlss and better ray tracing hardware is a big step forward.

Well, the consoles already have hardware RT and while having a competitor to DLSS is not a bad thing, it won't automatically bring better performance in games.

 

[Charlietus]

Well, the consoles already have hardware RT and while having a competitor to DLSS is not a bad thing, it won't automatically bring better performance in games.

I really don't agree with that. Consoles rt acceleration is like gen 0.5 while Nvidia and Intel is at gen 3. The difference between barely accelerated rt vs viable rt. The hardware implementation is so different.

Also, I'd say that having a dlss like upscaler can give you a performance uplift, since you can upscale from lower resolutions while getting similar or better image quality.

Nvidia was really clever introducing those features in 2018, they put AMD, Sony and Microsoft in a bad position technology wise, and now they are starting to catch up.

 

[davis.anthony]

I really don't agree with that. Consoles rt acceleration is like gen 0.5 while Nvidia and Intel is at gen 3.

There's nothing to disagree about, the consoles have hardware RT acceleration.

That's just a fact.

Also, I'd say that having a dlss like upscaler can give you a performance uplift, since you can upscale from lower resolutions while getting similar or better image quality.

Yes but a lot of newer games on these consoles (especially UE5 games) are already upscaling from very low resolutions and thus leaving no headroom to drop the resolution down even lower to claw back performance.

 

[Charlietus]

There's nothing to disagree about, the consoles have hardware RT acceleration.

That's just a fact.

You are right, consoles have rt acceleration. But if they are speeding up the ray tracing pipeline, they have new hardware features to achieve that.
So, new hardware features.

About ps5 games already dropping to low resolutions, why does that matter?
The concept remains the same: you get better image quality at the same input resolution. So that free's up resources elsewhere.

 

[davis.anthony]

About ps5 games already dropping to low resolutions, why does that matter?

It matters loads as it means PS5 Pro's additional 45% more GPU performance will simply be wasted on increasing the base resolution to get a decent PSSR output instead of being used to increase frame rate or graphics.

The concept remains the same: you get better image quality at the same input resolution. So that free's up resources elsewhere.

No it doesn't.

It doesn't matter if you use TAAU, FSR, DLSS or TSR, if they all have the same input the resolution, the image quality will differ but the performance won't.

 

[Charlietus]

It matters loads as it means PS5 Pro's additional 45% more GPU performance will simply be wasted on increasing the base resolution to get a decent PSSR output instead of being used to increase frame rate or graphics.



No it doesn't.

It doesn't matter if you use TAAU, FSR, DLSS or TSR, if they all have the same input the resolution, the image quality will differ but the performance won't.

So let's say a hypothetical PS5 game is running at 4k native, and PS5 pro pssr gives you very similar image quality going from 1440p to 4k. Now you are spending 2 milliseconds on reconstruction, and the rest in free performance.

Now, let's say a hypothetical PS5 game is running at 800p to 1216p reconstructed to 1440p with fsr 2. Now, a PS5 pro can just run at the equivalent of dlss quality mode at 1440p (so 960p) and, if it's a good upscaler, it will look comparable or better than the PS5 result while running better.

We have to compare performance at comparable image quality, that's what's important to me.

 

[Malo]

Now, let's say a hypothetical PS5 game is running at 800p to 1216p reconstructed to 1440p with fsr 2. Now, a PS5 pro can just run at the equivalent of dlss quality mode at 1440p (so 960p) and, if it's a good upscaler, it will look comparable or better than the PS5 result while running better.

You want to upscale an upscaled image?

 

[Charlietus]

You want to upscale an upscaled image?

What? PS5 is running between 720p and 1216p reconstructed with fsr2 to 1440p, PS5 pro is using pssr from 960p to 1440p.

 

[davis.anthony]

So let's say a hypothetical PS5 game is running at 4k native, and PS5 pro pssr gives you very similar image quality going from 1440p to 4k. Now you are spending 2 milliseconds on reconstruction, and the rest in free performance.

Nearly all the games released over the last 12 months don't run at native 4k on PS5 so your point is a little irrelevant.

Now, let's say a hypothetical PS5 game is running at 800p to 1216p reconstructed to 1440p with fsr 2. Now, a PS5 pro can just run at the equivalent of dlss quality mode at 1440p (so 960p) and, if it's a good upscaler, it will look comparable or better than the PS5 result while running better.

So you want to aim for a 1440p target with PSSR rather than the 4k target that it looks like it has been designed for.

I think you need to stop talking about DLSS and lower your expectations for PSSR's quality.

It'll be better than FSR but worse than DLSS, so likely around XeSS in quality.

We have to compare performance at comparable image quality, that's what's important to me.

Using image quality is a poor metric to gauge performance.

 

[Charlietus]

Nearly all the games released over the last 12 months don't run at native 4k on PS5 so your point is a little irrelevant.



So you want to aim for a 1440p target with PSSR rather than the 4k target that it looks like it has been designed for.

I think you need to stop talking about DLSS and lower your expectations for PSSR's quality.

It'll be better than FSR but worse than DLSS, so likely around XeSS in quality.


Using image quality is a poor metric to gauge performance.

I feel like you are not understanding what is being said, especially this : "Using image quality is a poor metric to gauge performance." That is not what is being said. If pssr gives you better or comparable image quality to PS5 while reconstructing from a lower resolution, it's enabling better performance. Is that clear enough? I'm using IF, I don't know if pssr is better or worse than dlss or xess, we are talking hypotheticals.
Like, why are you telling me that my 4k PS5 example is irrelevant, it's an example.

 

[davis.anthony]

I feel like you are not understanding what is being said, especially this : "Using image quality is a poor metric to gauge performance."

No, that is a poor metric.

If PS5 Pro uses PSSR to hit 60fps while offering slightly worse image quality than base PS5 achieves at 30fps, then image quality is a poor metric to gauge performance between the two machines.

If pssr gives you better or comparable image quality to PS5 while reconstructing from a lower resolution, it's enabling better performance. Is that clear enough?

It doesn't work that way.

PSSR might require a HIGHER input resolution than what base PS5 is using to achieve it's most effective image quality output.

Which may mean that there's no performance freed up just by using PSSR.

Like, why are you telling me that my 4k PS5 example is irrelevant, it's an example.

Because it's a poor example to use considering PS5 never hit native 4k in demanding games now.

It's pretty simple.

A game that drops below 1080p on base PS5 is likely going to need that base resolution increasing to get a good image out of PSSR, there is no performance increase here.

A game that runs at 1440p on base PS5 can have it's resolution dropped to 1080p for PSSR, this will enable a performance increase.

The issue is a lot games now can't even hit native 1440p.

 

[Charlietus]

No, that is a poor metric.

If PS5 Pro uses PSSR to hit 60fps while offering slightly worse image quality than base PS5 achieves at 30fps, then image quality is a poor metric to gauge performance between the two machines.



It doesn't work that way.

PSSR might require a HIGHER input resolution than what base PS5 is using to achieve it's most effective image quality output.

Which may mean that there's no performance freed up just by using PSSR.



Because it's a poor example to use considering PS5 never hit native 4k in demanding games now.

It's pretty simple.

A game that drops below 1080p on base PS5 is likely going to need that base resolution increasing to get a good image out of PSSR, there is no performance increase here.

A game that runs at 1440p on base PS5 can have it's resolution dropped to 1080p for PSSR, this will enable a performance increase.

The issue is a lot games now can't even hit native 1440p.

I guess I'll leave it at that. When PS5 pro comes out we'll see how it is.

 

[rntongo]

It matters loads as it means PS5 Pro's additional 45% more GPU performance will simply be wasted on increasing the base resolution to get a decent PSSR output instead of being used to increase frame rate or graphics.

So if GTA 6 for example has a 4K 30 fps and 1440p 60 fps mode on base PS5 we could see a 4K 60 fps mode on the pro model right?