So there's no way PS3 CPU is getting more than one PE~Cell?

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Is there no way that Playstation3 CPU or CPU-system is getting more than one of these 234 Million Transistor Processors ?

1 PPE (formerly PU) and 8 SPE (formerly APUs) and roughly 256 Glfops.

I suppose the 8 PU~PPE plus 64 APU~SPE on one chip reported by Mercury News would have been impossible.



Sony chip to transform video-game industry

TECHNOLOGY ENVISIONS ALL-IN-ONE BOX FOR HOME

By Dean Takahashi

Mercury News

Sony's next-generation video-game console, due in just two years, will feature a revolutionary architecture that will allow it to pack the processing power of a hundred of today's personal computers on a single chip and tap the resources of additional computers using high-speed network connections.

If key technical hurdles are overcome, the ``cell microprocessor'' technology, described in a patent Sony quietly secured in September, could help the Japanese electronics giant achieve the industry's holy grail: a cheap, all-in-one box for the home that can record television shows, surf the Net in 3-D, play music and run movie-like video games.

Besides the PlayStation 3 game console, Sony and its partners, IBM and Toshiba, hope to use the same basic chip design -- which organizes small groups of microprocessors to work together like bees in a hive -- for a range of computing devices, from tiny handheld personal digital assistants to the largest corporate servers.

If the partners succeed in crafting such a modular, all-purpose chip, it would challenge the dominance of Intel and other chip makers that make specialized chips for each kind of electronic device.

``This is a new class of beast,'' said Richard Doherty, an analyst at the Envisioneering Group in Seaford, N.Y. ``There is nothing like this project when it comes to how far-reaching it will be.''

Game industry insiders became aware of Sony's patent in the past few weeks, and the technology is expected to be a hot topic at the Game Developers Conference in San Jose this week. Since it can take a couple of years to write a game for a new system, developers will be pressing Sony and its rivals for technical details of their upcoming boxes, which are scheduled to debut in 2005.

Ken Kutaragi, head of Sony's game division and mastermind of the company's last two game boxes, is betting that in an era of networked devices, many distributed processors working together will be able to outperform a single processor, such as the Pentium chip at the heart of most PCs.


With the PS 3, Sony will apparently put 72 processors on a single chip: eight PowerPC microprocessors, each of which controls eight auxiliary processors.

Using sophisticated software to manage the workload, the PowerPC processors will divide complicated problems into smaller tasks and tap as many of the auxiliary processors as necessary to tackle them.


``The cell processors won't work alone,'' Doherty said. ``They will work in teams to handle the tasks at hand, no matter whether it is processing a video game or communications.''

As soon as each processor or team finishes its job, it will be immediately redeployed to do something else.

Such complex, on-the-fly coordination is a technical challenge, and not just for Sony. Game developers warn that the cell chips do so many things at once that it could be a nightmare writing programs for them -- the same complaint they originally had about the PlayStation 2, Sony's current game console.

Tim Sweeney, chief executive of Epic Games in Raleigh, N.C., said that programming games for the PS 3 will be far more complicated than for the PS 2 because the programmer will have to keep track of all the tasks being performed by dozens of processors.

``I can't imagine how you will actually program it,'' he said. ``You do all these tasks in parallel, but the results of one task may affect the results of another task.''

But Sony and its partners believe that if they can coordinate those processors at maximum efficiency, the PS 3 will be able to process a trillion math operations per second -- the equivalent of 100 Intel Pentium 4 chips and 1,000 times faster than processing power of the PS 2.

That kind of power would likely enable the PS 3 to simultaneously handle a wide range of electronic tasks in the home. For example, the kids might be able to race each other in a Grand Prix video game while Dad records an episode of ``The Simpsons.''

``The home server and the PS 3 may be the same thing,'' said Kunitake Ando, president and chief operating officer of Sony, at a recent dinner in Las Vegas.

Sony officials said that one key feature of the cell design is that if a device doesn't have enough processing power itself to handle everything, it can reach out to unused processors across the Internet and tap them for help.

Peter Glaskowsky, editor of the Microprocessor Report, said Sony is ``being too ambitious'' with the networked aspect of the cell design because even the fastest Internet connections are usually way too slow to coordinate tasks efficiently.

The cell chips are due to begin production in 2004, and the PS 3 console is expected to be ready at the same time that Nintendo and Microsoft launch their next-generation-game consoles in 2005.

Nintendo will likely focus on making a pure game box, but Microsoft, like Sony, envisions its next game console as a universal digital box.

A big risk for Sony and its allies is that in their quest to create a universal cell-based chip, they might compromise the PS 3's core video-game functionality. Chips suitable for a handheld, for example, might not be powerful enough to handle gaming tasks.

Sony has tried to address this problem by making the cell design modular; it can add more processors for a server, or use fewer of them in a handheld device.

``We plan to use the cell chips in other things besides the PlayStation 3,'' Ando said. ``IBM will use it in servers, and Toshiba will use it in consumer devices. You'd be surprised how much we are working on it now.''

But observers remain skeptical. ``It's very hard to use a special-purpose design across a lot of products, and this sounds like a very special-purpose chip,'' Glaskowsky said.

The processors will be primed for operation in a broadband, Net-connected environment and will be connected by a next-generation high-speed technology developed by Rambus of Los Altos.

Nintendo and Microsoft say they won't lag behind Sony on technology, nor will they be late in deploying their own next-generation systems.

While the outcome is murky now, analyst Doherty said that a few things are clear: ``Games are the engine of the next big wave of computing. Kutaragi is the dance master, and Sony is calling the shots.''


I guess then if PS3 CPU is merely a shrunk down, more refined version of the chip presented at ISSCC, then it will be less than half the 500 million transistors Sony promised for 'Emotion Engine 3'.


and not even a 936 million transistor (234 * 4) processor with 4 PPEs and 32 SPEs.


and, I guess then if PS3 CPU is merely a shrunk down, more refined version of the chip presented at ISSCC, then it will be less than half the 500 million transistors Sony promised for 'Emotion Engine 3'.

edit: well, I would at least hope that Sony includes a second 234 million transistor Cell processor to act as the front end for Nvidia's GPU. that way PS3 should have less disappointing performance. ok not that ~256 Gflops is disapointing. but it's alot less than expected.
 
I'd put money on this ISSCC cell being the top end of configurations that appear in PS3.

Even a second gen PS3 on 65nm (I think its safe to assume first batch will be 90nm) will also have a large GPU to cool as well. We are talking the heat/power requirements of a high-end PC in a little box...

But look on the bright side, this thing will be 40-50 times more powerful than a PS2... Thats as big a leap as PS1 to PS2, and if you've forgotten how big that was, go run GT2 next to GT4!
 
DeanoC said:
Thats as big a leap as PS1 to PS2, and if you've forgotten how big that was, go run GT2 next to GT4!
Hehe, I just calculated this earlier today (someone on GA claimed it wasn't the case) it's actually ~50% bigger jump to PS3 if you look at raw figures for IPC and MADD/transform speed.
 
true true.

though I guess Panajev, Paul, myself and some of the others will have to wait for PS4 to get what we wanted in our highest hopes for PS3.
 
And what was that? You know you'll never be happy... Just say the same thing if/when the "PS4" comes out...
 
Megadrive1988 said:
true true.

though I guess Panajev, Paul, myself and some of the others will have to wait for PS4 to get what we wanted in our highest hopes for PS3.

I was chatting with someone the other day about whether the hype machine might be backfiring a little. Seems very weird for a 4 Ghz 10 thread asymetric processor to be disappointing to a bunch of tekheads...
 
A BE or four Cells are still doable. Its a just a matter of how ambitious Sony is and how big their budget for PS3 really is. In one month we will find out.

Though at this moment, I would go with what DeanoC said.
 
Teasy said:
Megadrive

You're mistake was reading something written by Dean Takahashi :)

It's interesting you mention this...the first time I came across CELL was some article on another site by an ex Naughty Dog dude (Eagle guy, sorry can't remember his name) and he did a summary of the patents and claimed the PS3 was 1.5 TFLOPS! :D ...I think that set the tone for PS3! :LOL:

Btw, Megadrive, do you have a link to that 500 mil CPU claim in 1999? Thanks in advance...
 
pc999 said:
Anyways they brooke Moores Law, this thing is like (for what they say) a 25 cores P4.
No they didn't break Moores Law, its spot on where Moore predicted.

Moores law has nothing to with performance but transitor count. A P4 spends its transistors in a very different ways... whether its spends them wisely is very dependent on what your doing with it.

Intel could make a X86 processor with as many FLOPs as transistors allow, they CHOOSE not to. For them general processing performance is far more important. For the high end they have a monster Itanium2, so far they haven't bothered with a FLOPs monster, but if they really need to they could design one.

If you want to be depressed, consider that ISSCC Cell is only as complex as a high end GPU. Array processors (GPUs) will be the first single chip to hit a programmable TFLOP. The first 200+ GFLOP GPU come off the production line recently, we are still slightly ahead of Moores Law in GPU land, so mid 2006 should hit 500 GFLOP, with a TFLOP in 2007
 
I gotta agree, the hype machine flew the coop a long time ago.

One common mistake people have been making is assuming Cell in ps3 will be the highest end Cell. The high end Cell will be in workstations and supercomputers. Those, perhaps, will perform at 1 Tflop and 4 Ghz.

If ps3 has multiple, top end cell chips, I'll be surprised.

One more thing: the quoted speed of 4 ghz is under laboratory conditions. In the real world, with a console's size / noise / cooling / cost / etc constraints, is 4 ghz feasible?
 
ZoinKs! said:
One more thing: the quoted speed of 4 ghz is under laboratory conditions. In the real world, with a console's size / noise / cooling / cost / etc constraints, is 4 ghz feasible?
Considering the history of what was done with the EE(which actually ended up getting a higher clock than the presentation where it was unveiled), what is presented now is likely the final configuration for the next PS.

However, I'm sure the first units may double as a dust buster.

Must... resist... temptation... to be early adopter.
 
If ps3 has multiple, top end cell chips, I'll be surprised.

Despite what I said, what they revealed today is awfully close to the patent. So I won't be suprised if the most touted configuration is what Sony is going after all along.

PS3 is still one year away. They don't have to break Moore's Law to see something better than what is revealed today.
 
DeanoC said:
If you want to be depressed, consider that ISSCC Cell is only as complex as a high end GPU.

Probably even less so than the chip that will be nestling close by (although there are also going to be large disparities in clock speeds between the both).
 
Assumptions

1. Ken Kutaragi is mad for TFLOPS. :LOL:
2. BE (which will be inside next PS) is on 65nm process.
3. 65nm process introduces huge gains. (200% size gain, up to 75%? power saving) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/31/intel_65nm/
4. SCE will use shrunken version of cells for BE. (half-sized SRAM, single precision, optimized logic, ... )
5. Lower clock frequency for less power consumption. (also with Longrun2 tech? )

I still guesstimate BE will have 4 PEs. :D

-ysoya
 
DeanoC said:
Even a second gen PS3 on 65nm (I think its safe to assume first batch will be 90nm) will also have a large GPU to cool as well. We are talking the heat/power requirements of a high-end PC in a little box...

Bill Gates was also recently quoted as talking about several hundred watts in power requirements.
 
"4. SCE will use shrunken version of cells for BE. (half-sized SRAM, single precision, optimized logic, ... )"

no, SPE use only double precision floating multiply for FDIV and SQRT with newton-raphson metod
for parallell with single floating multiply
double precision circuit only 64 bit simple
 
ysoya

3)
The secret? The chip giant's strained silicon technique. It used strained silicon in its 90nm process, of course, but a "second generation" will be used at the 65nm node to "increase transistor performance by 10-15 per cent without increasing leakage".

The process also makes use of a low-k dielectric insulator, which further limits leakage. The process uses copper interconnects, arranged in eight layers.

They are talking about intel. Does son'ys fabs have this second generation strained silicon process for 65nm ?

Does sony's fabs have low k ?
 
jvd said:
They are talking about intel. Does son'ys fabs have this second generation strained silicon process for 65nm ?

Does sony's fabs have low k ?

I know it's the case of intel. But I expect sony would apply similar technology for their 65nm product. Who knows? ;)

And.. Sure, sony should have low-k. It's inevitable to make BE.
http://www.siliconstrategies.com/article/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=10803896
Under the plan, the companies intend to spend "several hundred million dollars" over four years to co-develop 90-nm (0.09-micron), 65-nm (0.065-micron), and 45-nm (0.045-micron) chips based on several advanced process technologies and materials, such as SOI wafers, copper-metal interconnects, and low-k dielectrics.

In addition, IBM will transfer its SOI technology to Japan's Sony and Toshiba. A team of scientists and engineers from IBM, Sony, and Toshiba will co-develop SOI technologies and devices at IBM's Semiconductor Research and Development Center (SRDC), based in East Fishkill.
 
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