?s about power and rez in Rev in comparation to the others consoles.

[pc999]

I am trying to understand what kind of power does Nintendo need to be comparable in 480p to the others consoles, and by comparable I mean the same level/quantity of shaders, the same level/quantity of effects, the same number of instructions per shaders, the same ratio of polys/pixels/rez of textures (I am not sure, but I think this would give a comparable image, but please correct me if I am wrong) and the same qualitily features (HDR,AA, AF).

Now lets pick a X1800 (only as a example, I dont mean they will use it or whatever), if a game can be played at (eg) 60FPS at 720p or 1080p(for example G7800 or RSX), how much less power (or in this cases it is, probably, better ask about pipes, considering the the architeture and the price), would be need/enouthg to play the same games at 60FPS in 480p being the rest as described, it is possible to say how many VS pipes and PS pipes to do that

A even harder question is, if we can calculate how many less transistors can they save too.

I dont know if it is possible to answer this but I think that if it is it would cleara lot of confution regarding the GPU of Rev, althought I think that it would be much harder to put/doing somethingh comparable in terms of CPU power and caculate it, but anyway it should help a lot in terms gfx questions.

Thanks in advance.

Edit2: It is alsopossible to do the math to know the BW need for that too

PS: I do not want to say that they will use whatever, not a X1800/X1600...not even a traditional architeture (it would be possible to do the same in a unified/Xenus like GPU, once it is setup limited?), it is just for the sake of knowledge.

PS2: this is bad title to this topic, so, mods, fell free to change it.

Edit: the original rez to the X1800which I had forgot

 

[jvd]

wel lthey are driving a third of the pixels .

I would expect a powerfull dual core cpu around 3 gigs and a r580 card with good badnwidth would keep up graphicly with the ps3 and xbox 360 when they are at 720p and nintendo is at 480p

 

[Guden Oden]

There's too many unknown variables about Rev right now for anyone to make anything even resembling an educated guess. Seriously, all we know about Rev's core hardware is that it'll have a CPU from IBM (that'll most likely be PowerPC-based), a GPU by ATi (that'll most likely be made by the Flipper design team, and at least party based on Flipper), have MoSys 1T SRAM memory, and nothing else.

We can guess certain things if we assume Rev will exclusively run at SD rez; standard VGA is appx. 33% of 720P rez, so highly theoretically, Rev would only need a third of the rendering power of xenos to give comparable GFX at TV rez. That's based on so many assumptions as to be virtually useless though...

 

[Master-Mold]

wel lthey are driving a third of the pixels .

I would expect a powerfull dual core cpu around 3 gigs and a r580 card with good badnwidth would keep up graphicly with the ps3 and xbox 360 when they are at 720p and nintendo is at 480p

No way.


Smaller and cheaper than that. It needs to run cool as well. I honestly wouldnt be shocked to see a low wattage single core in the 2.5 GHZ neighborhood and a custom chip similar to a mobile ATI GPU like X800 series features. I would also guess some Ram between 350-500 megs of good quality/speed. I doubt they can stuff a 600mhz chip in that little case.

I expect something efficient and mid-range because like the past they wont be willing to lose money on the console. I dont expect it to be anywhere near the performance of the X360 or PS3. They have said several times they arent aiming for that kind of performance.

 

[jvd]

No way.


Smaller and cheaper than that

err the system is coming out in late 2006 .


A dual core 3.2 ghz cpu will be realitively slow at that point in time and perhaps even be made on 65nm

The form factor is small but its not that small and 2 chips inside it can be cooled .

honestly wouldnt be shocked to see a low wattage single core in the 2.5 GHZ neighborhood and a custom chip similar to a mobile ATI GPU like X800 series features.

A 2.5ghz chip ? This wouldn't compete at all , they will still need to do physics . No it will most likely be dual core .

As for the x800 why would they go with a chip that will be over 2 years old at that point ? They can put in a mid range r580 product that will run pretty cool at that point in time or at worse a r520 mid range product that by that time will run cool (we are talking about almost a year after the introduction of the product .)

I would also guess some Ram between 350-500 megs of good quality/speed.

why would they put in so little ram ? they ccan put in 512 megs of gdr 700mhz for less than waht ms is spending this year . Ram will most likely be cheap and will be the easiest way for them to make up any graphical diffrence

I expect something efficient and mid-range because like the past they wont be willing to lose money on the console. I dont expect it to be anywhere near the performance of the X360 or PS3. They have said several times they arent aiming for that kind of performance.

but they said the final image will be compariable

 

[pc999]

I think they will use at the very least, custum chips, and I guess that those memory will still not be cheap in 2006, but they probably will need much less BW anyway.

But thanks for the replys, I will gess they can save a lot (till 1/2)

 

[Master-Mold]

As for the x800 why would they go with a chip that will be over 2 years old at that point ? They can put in a mid range r580 product that will run pretty cool at that point in time or at worse a r520 mid range product that by that time will run cool (we are talking about almost a year after the introduction of the product .)

why would they put in so little ram ? they ccan put in 512 megs of gdr 700mhz for less than waht ms is spending this year . Ram will most likely be cheap and will be the easiest way for them to make up any graphical diffrence

Why do they keep pumping out 16-bit handhelds that are based on technology that is 10+ years old? Because old technology is cheap.

Most people assume $199 is the price they are aiming for even in 18 months those parts wont be that cheap. Also they need small and efficient. If 480P is their goal they dont really need much in the way of technology.

Of course I am simply guessing.

 

[jvd]

Why do they keep pumping out 16-bit handhelds that are based on technology that is 10+ years old? Because old technology is cheap.

because it makes them alot of money . Portables are just that portable and no one wnats power hungry systems that don't last for long and they really just want fun games on the system.

But what thier hand held systems have to do with ther console systems which are normaly some of the most powerfull in the generation (superness , n64 , gamecube fell inbetween )

Most people assume $199 is the price they are aiming for even in 18 months those parts wont be that cheap. Also they need small and efficient. If 480P is their goal they dont really need much in the way of technology.

they can hit 200$ with what i described. If ms can hit 400$ and include a hardrive and sony can hit around 400$ and include a next gen optical format then why can't nintendo hit 200$ with what i described. Neither will be terribly expensive

If we go with a mid range r520 product , say the x1600 its 200$ now . in summer of 2006 it will be under 100$ . That includes 256 megs of fast ram and its own pcb and an increase to make money off of .

A dual core cpu custom made will most likely be smaller in die size (much smaller) than the tri core xenon in the xbox 360.

So i really don't see why people feel nintendo needs to use 2 year old tech to make a 200$ system . Nintendo isn't shy to loose money on a system , they just don't want to loose alot

 

[Powderkeg]

err the system is coming out in late 2006 .


A dual core 3.2 ghz cpu will be realitively slow at that point in time and perhaps even be made on 65nm

The form factor is small but its not that small and 2 chips inside it can be cooled .



A 2.5ghz chip ? This wouldn't compete at all , they will still need to do physics . No it will most likely be dual core .

As for the x800 why would they go with a chip that will be over 2 years old at that point ? They can put in a mid range r580 product that will run pretty cool at that point in time or at worse a r520 mid range product that by that time will run cool (we are talking about almost a year after the introduction of the product .)

why would they put in so little ram ? they ccan put in 512 megs of gdr 700mhz for less than waht ms is spending this year . Ram will most likely be cheap and will be the easiest way for them to make up any graphical diffrence

but they said the final image will be compariable

You forget a major point.

MS is taking a significant loss on hardware. Just for Nintendo to hit the $100 price point, and still take the same loss as MS, they will have to spend $100 less on the complete hardware package.

Now, whose controller do you think costs more? MS's standard gamepad, or Nintendo's controller package?

Deduct the difference from the money Nintendo has left to spend on hardware.

So, now you have have a difference of over $100 less than MS has to spend on hardware. Where is this savings going to be coming from?



And keep in mind that MS will be paying the same for their RAM and chips in a year as well. Either you are expecting MS to be making some massive profits in a year, or you expenct Nintendo to be taking some heavy losses, or Nintendo will have to buy cheaper and lower-powered hardware than MS.

 

[Cornman]

You forget a major point.

MS is taking a significant loss on hardware. Just for Nintendo to hit the $100 price point, and still take the same loss as MS, they will have to spend $100 less on the complete hardware package.

Now, whose controller do you think costs more? MS's standard gamepad, or Nintendo's controller package?

Deduct the difference from the money Nintendo has left to spend on hardware.

So, now you have have a difference of over $100 less than MS has to spend on hardware. Where is this savings going to be coming from?



And keep in mind that MS will be paying the same for their RAM and chips in a year as well. Either you are expecting MS to be making some massive profits in a year, or you expenct Nintendo to be taking some heavy losses, or Nintendo will have to buy cheaper and lower-powered hardware than MS.

yeah do you know howq much nintendo is spending on R&D?


Microsoft's Xbox360 has vs REV...
*DVD licenses for.... DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW.
*HD bay
*1 more USB port
*2 more memory card ports
*built in ethernet
*HD output port
*HD signal hardware

and its comming out this year.

Revolution is comming out a year later with only...

*Free Wifi connection
*2 USB ports
*2 memory card ports
*Flash upgrade port

But has hardware that is sold separately

Ethernet-USB adapter
DVD software codecs(Dongle,DVD,or CD)
Custom controller add-ons

 

[Cornman]

You forget a major point.

MS is taking a significant loss on hardware. Just for Nintendo to hit the $100 price point, and still take the same loss as MS, they will have to spend $100 less on the complete hardware package.

Now, whose controller do you think costs more? MS's standard gamepad, or Nintendo's controller package?

Deduct the difference from the money Nintendo has left to spend on hardware.

So, now you have have a difference of over $100 less than MS has to spend on hardware. Where is this savings going to be coming from?



And keep in mind that MS will be paying the same for their RAM and chips in a year as well. Either you are expecting MS to be making some massive profits in a year, or you expenct Nintendo to be taking some heavy losses, or Nintendo will have to buy cheaper and lower-powered hardware than MS.

how much money nintendo has spent on its R&D?

 

[Powderkeg]

yeah do you know howq much nintendo is spending on R&D?


Microsoft's Xbox360 has vs REV...
*DVD licenses for.... DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW.

Are you saying Nintendo isn't paying for any of these, because I can show you where they've promised DVD movie playback.

*HD bay
*1 more USB port
*2 more memory card ports
*built in ethernet

And all of those combined cost what, about $3?

*HD output port
*HD signal hardware

Oh no, another $1 or 2. Egad.

How much do you think it costs to R&D the Revolution controller and sensor array compared to the 360 controller, which is virtually identical to the wireless Xbox controllers already on the market?

and its comming out this year.

So?

This time next year, MS will have the same or possibly even lower production costs as Nintendo. They'll pay the same or less for RAM, they'll pay the same or less for the fabrication (Primarily because theirs will be fully ramped up already) they'll be taking advantage of the same cost reductions.

Like I said, either Nintendo will be taking a major loss, or MS will be making amajor profit. The hardware costs will be minimal, maybe a couple fo dollars at best for similar hardware.

Revolution is comming out a year later with only...

*Free Wifi connection

That's a pretty massive investment right there, don't you think? Live costs MS a couple of billion dollars, and even they don't provide free wireless connectivity.

*2 USB ports
*2 memory card ports

MS has the same number of memory card ports, and 1 more USB port, and they will cost the exact same as Nintendo's.

So, MS will only be paying for 1 more USB port, which might cost a whole dollar.

*Flash upgrade port

I think it would be fair to say that costs about the same as the Hard Drive port in the 360, wouldn't you?

But has hardware that is sold separately

Ethernet-USB adapter
DVD software codecs(Dongle,DVD,or CD)
Custom controller add-ons

So? You've saved a whole dollar, maybe 2 so far. What are you going to cut out to save the other $98?

 

[mckmas8808]

Powerkeg you have to calm down man. Your hate for Nintendo is way too apparent. The sad thing is you have good points, but mess it up with ridiculas comments. Just calm down it's ok.