Ray Tracing will enable that.
Ray Tracing will enable that.
Looking at some of the performance metrics for various PC GPU's without ray tracing on there seems to be GPU's that are weaker than PS5's GPU but offering better performance
Looks like a good port! I want to play this game badly but I am stuck with 1660ti. This is far cry from ps5 and ps5 runs game at 1080p so I had little hope that I will be able to run it at all. But it seems i may play it after all at 1080p with reduced settings.
I expect the stuttering issues will be resolved pretty soon. Shame it had to come out the door with them intact but for the most part this is a very high quality PC port.
davis.anthony
Veteran
Not to mention it's a high quality DX12 release too!
internets favourite gaming forum trying really hard to paint this game as AAA for the last 2 years straight. Doing it with renewed force now 
The game is as AA as you can get. Similar to how Control is. And you can see it in every nook and cranny in the game. I can't see any other reason other than platform warring over there for the bizzare and abnormal constant mentioning how this is AAA. This term gets mentioned when Returnal is talked about obsessively. Out of context. If sony was happy with the game sales when they were around 500K units sold, that puts the budget at around 20 to 30 million. Same ballpark as Control.
The game is as AA as you can get. Similar to how Control is. And you can see it in every nook and cranny in the game. I can't see any other reason other than platform warring over there for the bizzare and abnormal constant mentioning how this is AAA. This term gets mentioned when Returnal is talked about obsessively. Out of context. If sony was happy with the game sales when they were around 500K units sold, that puts the budget at around 20 to 30 million. Same ballpark as Control.The "Playstation effect", as I call it. The popularity, and success of past PS games has allowed the hardcore PS fans to basically control the narrative surrounding new/upcoming releases and basically "will" games into different status tiers as they choose. They believe it so much, because it's a "Playstation game".. that it elevates it to a certain status. Conversely they can do the same by downplaying the competition as well.internets favourite gaming forum trying really hard to paint this game as AAA for the last 2 years straight. Doing it with renewed force now
Inuhanyou
Veteran
Alternatively, people familiar with housemarque just consider it AAA compared to the previous games housemarque has done. This is on a completely different level than resogun. Still clearly much smaller scale than a bigger game but high production values and marketing.
I don't really get why people would want to tout such a game as AAA though? It seems like it would be better to show that all types of games can exist and be supported. This is clearly a smaller AA project. But for housemarque is a clear seachange in their philosophy.
You say it's just "playstation fanboys attempting to inflate the importance of this game", but I've also seen plenty of people mention how it is big budget to claim it failed expectations as a big budget Sony project because they don't mention the sales being eleventy billion.
I honestly don't really get the back and forth either way
They're not just claiming its AAA on rera today, they went completely unhinged over there. Several pages on insisting how its a lavish AAA game because mobygames has listed 1000 devs on it. I just can't fathom how someone can play Returnal and not imediately see that its a very small production from every possible angle. As if we haven't played a million games until now to know how an AAA game looks like. But over there on that forum they also think there's such a thing as 1st party money and that sony exclusives have higher budgets than almost any other game. When in fact, like i talked about in other ocassions, outside of Last of Us 2 and maybe Ragnarock just now, all their budgets range from less than 3rd party games to far less than 3rd party games. How do those people think a company budgets a game when it has a single platform to sell on versus a publisher budgeting a game that sells on FOUR platforms ? The obsession that forum has with sony plus a general lack of knowledge about anything just prevents them from seeing reason. Last of Us 2, which very likely has the biggest budget of any sony game ever made, they said it was PROFITABLE in day one. It sold just 4 million in three days. Meaning that if was already on profit in day one, just around 2.5 to 3 million copies were enough. Well, calculate what kind of budget you can have when you're already on profit from just that low of an amount of sales.
Pretty much every bigger scoped 3rd party game has bigger budgets than any sony exclusive simply by the nature that they have a bigger potential of return due to being on 3 or 4 platforms instead of just one.
Pretty much every bigger scoped 3rd party game has bigger budgets than any sony exclusive simply by the nature that they have a bigger potential of return due to being on 3 or 4 platforms instead of just one.
And Housemarque consider the game AAA. The peak number of developer was 80 internally plus more people from support studio helping them. This is not a little project and not a big one. Probably something around the frontier of AA and AAA. They never worked with more than 20/25 people in a team before.
When We Made… Returnal - Business News - MCV/DEVELOP
Harry Krueger and his team at Housemarque sent gamers on a trip to time-bending cosmic horror planet Atropos last year. Vince Pavey met with the game’s director and tried not to lose his mind while learning about what it was like developing that nightmare fuel - MCV/DEVELOP
www.mcvuk.com
The Making of Returnal Spoiler - Sony
I originally posted this in the PlayStation Studios OT to a very positive reception, so I've decided to also share it in a new thread for more eyes to see. I was watching The Making of Returnal talks by Harry Krueger (Game Director, Housemarque) in the GDC Vault and figured I'd summarize some...
www.resetera.com
If you think Horizon Forbidden West was cheap to make. Budget of games are made around sales of games. God of War 2018 sold 23 millions, Horizon Zero Dawn sold 20 millions and God of War Ragnarok 11 millions in three months. Spiderman and Spiderman Miles Morales sold at least 33 millions . Ghost of Tsushima was at 8 millions and TLOU2 number was at 10 millions. Sony pay attention to budget of new franchise and give less money to studios without a big hit. HZD or Ghost of Tsushima production value could have been better but the sequels had and will have much bigger budget. Horizon Zero Dawn, the game sold more than all Killzone together.
Out of Rockstar games, I don't think third party single player AAA games cost much more to do than Sony first party games. And this si logic Rockstar sold 170 million GTA5 and 50 millions RDR2.
Assassin's Creed Valhalla Reaches an Impressive 20 Million Players
Odin is with us
www.pushsquare.com
AC Valhalla sold less than Horizon Zero Dawn. They reach 20 millions players because the game was on PS plus for example.
Very few publisher/studio sold much more AAA single player games, we can count Rockstar games and to a lesser degree some Bethesda studios games(Elder Scroll/Fallout).
And Sony games are on two platforms on PS4/PS5 and later PC.
Returnal is not an AAA game, jesus Maybe in their minds it was because their other games were so infinitely smaller in scale. Returnal is absolutely, under any definition of the word, not an AAA game. A 20 million budget, thats, Riven back in 1997 had a 20 million dollar budget. Crysis back in 2007 had a 23 million dollar budget. The money with which Returnal was made is from 15-20 years ago. Its not AAA. And you can see in the empty gameworld, small scope, scripting and so on.
yeah, that's what i already said. Projected sales more exactly, because you dont know for certain. The first Horizon was around 40 million dollars if i remember right, which is about 2 to 3 times less than what similar 3rd party games cost around that time. Why ? Because sony didnt know it was gonna sell that well, plus they were worried about a female protagonist. After the success of the first game im sure the sequel got a juicy increase in budget. God of War 2018 was also on the lower end of the AAA spectrum. It came as a risky project and the last game underperformed. Why would anyone give the game some very big budget when on paper it was pretty risky for them ? Why do you think the gameworld of GOW 2018 is empty and devoid of anything ? Why there are like 5 npc's in the entire game. Why there is one type of puzzle repeating through the whole game. Why every encounter has a handfull of enemies teleported when you trigger the script (they dont have to program AI and make routines for them and account for different player behaviour, because they had no money). Why there are 2 animations for climbing up/down in the whole game, why you have a single troll model repeated a hundred times and the same boss with different colours repeated until the game is over. They didnt have enough money.
Also, don't fall for sony's idea of sales. 20 million after half a decade. Bundles and 8 dollar copies. GOW 2018 sold 10 million after 15 months. Sales after that point, are so low cost that i wouldn't really give them much importance.
Not only do they cost more, they cost double or more. 40 million for Horizon 1 in a timeframe where Shadow of the TR cost at max 135 million. And we're told that is the usual cost for similar type of games. Like i said, TLOU 2 is probably the most expensive sony game ever and it was on profit in day one, from an estimated 2.5 to 3 million copies. Thats a 130 to 150 million dollars. Probably the same for Ragnarock. Everything else if far bellow, as of now. Spiderman 2 im sure will be another huge one.
3rd party games just have the luxury of selling on playstation, xbox, pc and switch. So, those sales that sony only has its console to sell on, 3rd party publishers have 4 times that. Remember Avengers and its budget estimated at near 200 million dollars ? They were expecting big things out of it, hence the budget.
Maybe in their minds it was because their other games were so infinitely smaller in scale. Returnal is absolutely, under any definition of the word, not an AAA game. A 20 million budget, thats, Riven back in 1997 had a 20 million dollar budget. Crysis back in 2007 had a 23 million dollar budget. The money with which Returnal was made is from 15-20 years ago. Its not AAA. And you can see in the empty gameworld, small scope, scripting and so on. yeah, that's what i already said. Projected sales more exactly, because you dont know for certain. The first Horizon was around 40 million dollars if i remember right, which is about 2 to 3 times less than what similar 3rd party games cost around that time. Why ? Because sony didnt know it was gonna sell that well, plus they were worried about a female protagonist. After the success of the first game im sure the sequel got a juicy increase in budget. God of War 2018 was also on the lower end of the AAA spectrum. It came as a risky project and the last game underperformed. Why would anyone give the game some very big budget when on paper it was pretty risky for them ? Why do you think the gameworld of GOW 2018 is empty and devoid of anything ? Why there are like 5 npc's in the entire game. Why there is one type of puzzle repeating through the whole game. Why every encounter has a handfull of enemies teleported when you trigger the script (they dont have to program AI and make routines for them and account for different player behaviour, because they had no money). Why there are 2 animations for climbing up/down in the whole game, why you have a single troll model repeated a hundred times and the same boss with different colours repeated until the game is over. They didnt have enough money.
Also, don't fall for sony's idea of sales. 20 million after half a decade. Bundles and 8 dollar copies. GOW 2018 sold 10 million after 15 months. Sales after that point, are so low cost that i wouldn't really give them much importance.
Not only do they cost more, they cost double or more. 40 million for Horizon 1 in a timeframe where Shadow of the TR cost at max 135 million. And we're told that is the usual cost for similar type of games. Like i said, TLOU 2 is probably the most expensive sony game ever and it was on profit in day one, from an estimated 2.5 to 3 million copies. Thats a 130 to 150 million dollars. Probably the same for Ragnarock. Everything else if far bellow, as of now. Spiderman 2 im sure will be another huge one.
3rd party games just have the luxury of selling on playstation, xbox, pc and switch. So, those sales that sony only has its console to sell on, 3rd party publishers have 4 times that. Remember Avengers and its budget estimated at near 200 million dollars ? They were expecting big things out of it, hence the budget.
Inuhanyou
Veteran
I have to question why you care so much about what some other people on another forum think about what is AAA to such a degree and why it actually matters? As long as it is a successful product.
Going on a tangent about how some people think the game is AAA is silly. Talking about the game itself is much more interesting
Going on a tangent about how some people think the game is AAA is silly. Talking about the game itself is much more interesting
It's not that i care what people think about this game, its more that just by chance i kept seeing this push for Returnal being AAA, in an abnormal way than any other game for two years already. Together with the notion that sony exlusives are these games that nothing else touches when we know for a fact that its not true. And today it was another instance. Seeing people being wrong about a thing for years irks me a little bit But you are correct, it is offtopic. Sorry
But you are correct, it is offtopic. SorryReturnal is not an AAA game, jesus
yeah, that's what i already said. Projected sales more exactly, because you dont know for certain. The first Horizon was around 40 million dollars if i remember right, which is about 2 to 3 times less than what similar 3rd party games cost around that time. Why ? Because sony didnt know it was gonna sell that well, plus they were worried about a female protagonist. After the success of the first game im sure the sequel got a juicy increase in budget. God of War 2018 was also on the lower end of the AAA spectrum. It came as a risky project and the last game underperformed. Why would anyone give the game some very big budget when on paper it was pretty risky for them ? Why do you think the gameworld of GOW 2018 is empty and devoid of anything ? Why there are like 5 npc's in the entire game. Why there is one type of puzzle repeating through the whole game. Why every encounter has a handfull of enemies teleported when you trigger the script (they dont have to program AI and make routines for them and account for different player behaviour, because they had no money). Why there are 2 animations for climbing up/down in the whole game, why you have a single troll model repeated a hundred times and the same boss with different colours repeated until the game is over. They didnt have enough money.
Also, don't fall for sony's idea of sales. 20 million after half a decade. Bundles and 8 dollar copies. GOW 2018 sold 10 million after 15 months. Sales after that point, are so low cost that i wouldn't really give them much importance.
Not only do they cost more, they cost double or more. 40 million for Horizon 1 in a timeframe where Shadow of the TR cost at max 135 million. And we're told that is the usual cost for similar type of games. Like i said, TLOU 2 is probably the most expensive sony game ever and it was on profit in day one, from an estimated 2.5 to 3 million copies. Thats a 130 to 150 million dollars. Probably the same for Ragnarock. Everything else if far bellow, as of now. Spiderman 2 im sure will be another huge one.
3rd party games just have the luxury of selling on playstation, xbox, pc and switch. So, those sales that sony only has its console to sell on, 3rd party publishers have 4 times that. Remember Avengers and its budget estimated at near 200 million dollars ? They were expecting big things out of it, hence the budget.
Horizon Zero Dawn Has Sold Over 20 Million Copies | Console Creatures
Horizon Zero Dawn has sold 20 million units across PlayStation 4 and PC.
www.consolecreatures.com
Horizon Zero Dawn: more than 10 million copies sold lifetime
Guerrilla’s hit is squarely in the company of Breath of the Wild
www.polygon.com
Horizon Zero Dawn sold 20 million after three years not half a decade. This is a new franchise. It sold 7 millions after one year and 10 million after two years. Again bundle for the first year account for only 20% of the sales and bundle are sold at higher price than the console alone. HZD did not cost 45 millions euros to make. This is a confusion. HZD cost more than any film or game made in Netherland and it means at least 45 million euros because the most expensive movie cost this price to be made. We don't know the budget of HZD. After it is much lower than HFW because best sale for a GG games was 2/3 millions maybe 60/70 millions euros. Ghost of Tsushima sold 8 milion after one year.
Cory Barlog: The struggle of making God of War
Cory Barlog, creative director for God of War, spoke at Gamelab with Stuart Whyte of Sony London about the making of God of War.
venturebeat.com
God of War was made by 300 people on a 5 years period in Santa Monica one of the place where developing a game is the most expensive. I doubt it was a low budget. And sequel have huge budget probably bigger than tons of third party single player AAA games because they sold better.
From linkedin of a Playstation employee
Again being multiplatform doesn't mean sold 20 millions or more copies, it is a rare feature. We can count GTA, RDR, COD, Battlefield, Skyrim(30 millions after 11 years), Fallout, FIFA, Minecraft, Roblox, maybe Elden Ring, The Witcher 3, probably Cyberpunk 2077 for game on PS, Xbox and PC.
Some franchise like Tomb Raider or Final Fantasy or Resident Evil don't sold 20 million copies and AC doesn't sold 20 million anymore. Tomb Raider sold less than Uncharted for example.
Avengers is a GAAS games. I prefer compare single player AAA games between them.
80% Of Horizon Forbidden West European Sales Weren't Bundled With PS5
The industry analyst Christopher Dring has dispelled a popular rumor; the majority of Horizon Forbidden West sales were not part of a bundle.
exputer.com
EDIT: I forget Hogwarts Legacy for the game solding more than 20 million copies. It will arrive fast. And another fact long tail sales are made mostly on digital store with high profit. Follow a little a capcom financial statement and you will see back catalog is now very important.
HZD cost 19.99 dollars on the store now and it goes down to 9.99 sometimes. It reach this price on PSN 2 years and a half after release.
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True, and I'd agree with those people in that sense. However, like you stated, it doesn't really change what the reality is. You could have a small indie team with a handful of people who could release their first game as a 2d pixel art RPG, and then the next game could double the size of the team and introduce 3d graphics, which would put it on a completely different level according to some people.
I'd say I see it more as PS fanboys attempting to artificially create a sense of higher quality surrounding a game, simply due to it being a PS exclusive, moreso than its percieved importance to Playstation. In fact they often tout how these "smaller games" are of higher quality than other competition's "AAA" games, and that they are essentially filler games between PS' REAL AAA behemoth titles and exclusive 3rd party games. For example with games like Kena and Stray, PS fanboys created a sense that their quality is a tier above similar games simply because they are exclusive to Playstation. They're great titles, and very solid games in their category.. but there's far better games out there IMO. They can do this because there's already a perception of the quality of PS titles (which is fairly earned in many cases) and because the popularity of the brand.. the fanboys can almost *will* a game to a certain level of success.
Also I've heard arguments that Sony's games coming to PC "lowers the perceived quality and prestige" of those games on console. Perhaps to some people, yes, but the difference is that they're such fanboys for their plastic box that it simply doesn't allow them to build the same type of narrative if that game is also releasing somewhere other than their preferred box.
Usually they get past this in arguments by moving on to the next upcoming exclusive game to hold over people's heads while discarding the importance of the previous games.
For me, AAA games are a matter of score and worth to me... not budget and marketing costs. A game that sets out, executes and accomplishes what its vision is with a high quality and confidence is AAA in my mind.
They had at least 6 to 7 times more people on Returnal than the biggest game they made before. They were at least 160 (internal + support studio) and only 20 to 25 on biggest game before. This is not doubling the size of the team. This is huge for an AA game and little for a AAA game.
The AA and AAA thing is a bit fuzzy in general. Cyberpunk 2077 cost over 320 million USD in the cheaper Poland and there were additional costs after its release. Currently Star Citizen has about 900 employees and the budget will be over 800 million USD. Does that make USD 80 million still AAA? After all, the difference between 320 million USD and 80 million USD is much greater than between 30 million USD and 80 million USD.
Inuhanyou
Veteran
You make a fair point my friend on all counts. All I'd say as a counterpoint is that if that is your barometer of AAA quality, Returnal smashes it with gusto
housemarque clearly set out to do a particular thing and for the most part did it very well, especially with that added expectation of moving beyond the scope of their normal very small arcade esque origins.In general, I feel like playstation needs more diversity these days. Cutting off Japan studio made sense as it was a mess for a decade, but expanding studios with different genres like fighting games, new racers, fps, action titles of the like would go a long way.
In the PS3 era Sony made a lot of different kinds of games. Some successful some not. But they were much more daring.
Some might argue that the rise in dev costs inevitably means sticking to bread and butter success and that Sony is simply doing what they always have done, leaning heavily on third parties for their brands appeal, which I don't neccisarily disagree with.
But in the era of the aquisition war when MS has made clear they are trying to eat as many third parties as possible, diversifying your own studios and making what you make as broad and varied as possible means a lot more I think than before. I'm just speaking as a consumer here which I think would make the industry in general more appealing and interesting having more players try more things.
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