Ratchet and Clank [PS4]

[Phil]

Having just recently played the HD remakes on the PS3, I can say quite a few times. I can't name any specific examples, but on pretty much anything after a 4th into any of the older games, the gameplay becomes quite hectic. Hectic as in dodging, shooting and moving around becomes an essential part of the game and survival. Perhaps it is more a shooter than a traditional platformer (the last true platformer I played I suppose was Jak & Daxter, the first one), but just because the focus is on shooting, striving and dodging bullets doesn't mean it's void of any platforming. One part of the game that comes to mind is for example the part where you are on a moving train/ship moving through the city. You're practically jumping from wagon to wagon while shooting and dodging. There are numerous occasions like this spread throughout the lush planets.

The precision aspect is a combined element of having to avoid getting hit by bullets (bullets that are slow enough to be dodged), so jumping and moving around is the core gameplay feature of the game. London-Boy brought up UC4 - Uncharted isn't on the same level. Uncharted is a shooter, nothing more, nothing less. To call it anything remotely close to a platformer is like shoving a foot down someones throat. It's dumbed down and any jumping from platform to platform in the Uncharted series has zilch to do with any amount of skill and is more akin to watching an interactive cut-scene of your character doing the nigh on impossible jump. Yes, I love Uncharted - for what it is - but it isn't a platformer. It's much slower paced and you're not doing multiple things at the same time as you would be in a R&C game. Okay, fair point, UC multiplayer is perhaps closer to a platformer in that the gameplay is very hectic and there's a lot more unpredictable shooting going around (although you're not dodging any bullets there, the bullets are far too fast to dodge)... but even so, Naughty Dog is aiming for 60fps there at the expense of resolution, go figure...

 

[Sigfried1977]

Not saying the games aren't hectic. Just saying they aren't demanding or particularly unforgiving. And while I fully agree that Uncharted isn't a platformer by any means, you could make a very similar argument regardless: just don't make it about the jumping passages and talk about the gunplay instead.
And ND is only aiming for 60fps during mp. A mode which R&C does not have.

Either way, let's just wait and see how it plays. Game's fairly cheap too. Can be preordered for a measily 35€ on PSN right now. Didn't expect that at all.

 

[Phil]

You would not believe, but I've just spent the good part of 20 minutes trying to look for a youtube video that shows the hectic gameplay nicely, but it seems rather hard since there are not many videos available, except for long playthroughs or are boss fights (which I didn't want to link because I was aiming to find something more representative of the more usual gameplay).

I did find this one though, from one of the arenas (not the example I intended, but it shows off quite nicely why 60fps would be nice):

(and for the love of god, I recommend muting it before you watch it)

Note the constant amount of rotating the camera within a split second, the constant dodging and jumping around, the shooting and aiming all at the same time. You will not find this type of split-second-moving-striving-shooting-jumping in any Uncharted game. Because it isn't that type of game. Uncharted is based on more real-world type of physics where you control a human that is much more laggier in how he moves (because it aims to be somewhat realistic and you want the legs and the animation to behave what we are used to in the realworld). Uncharted also forces the player to go into *aim mode* when shooting. So you're not multitasking to the degree as you would in the type of game we're talking about. Ratchet & Clank isn't bound by the rules of realism, that's why it's a platformer, why the gameplay is that much quicker and should be snappier too. And any game with that amount of rotating camera would want a high framerate engine. It's why we prefer playing shooters or driving games at 60fps too. Lots of panning. Constantly. It's the prime example of a game and genre that should be 60fps and nothing less. If this isn't, I don't know what game is and we might as well aim for subpar 30fps in any game of any genre. :/

PS: And no, I don't think that video represents the most hectic gameplay footage you will find in a typical R&C game. It's just the best example I could find without linking to a 20+ minute video.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Some of the levels at th end of that game were crazy.

 

[London Geezer]

The difference is, R&C is a real platformer. You know, the genre of games we used to play and grow up with that required precision? Because jumping from platform to platform, whilst shooting and aiming is what really benefits a higher framerate. Sure, 30fps works. 20fps works too. 15fps might even work too, but after years and years of countless platformers and R&C games that produced stellar game mechanics at 60fps, why should we be satisfied with anything less? And here Insomniac wonders why they've been going down the drain over all these years and they take away one of the bullet point features that made them strong in the first place.

Maybe memory fails me - actually, it most likely does - but I simply cannot recall R&C as a demanding platformer. It was a demanding shooter, but the platforming parts of the game were not the real challenge. I always thought of it as a shooter with a few jumps here and there kind of game.

The last real platformer I played was probably the first Jak and Daxter. That one turned very shooter-y too with Jak 2, but the Jak games always felt a lot more platform-y than the R&C games I played.

 

[Phil]

Maybe platformer is not the right term. It sure enough isn't what it once was (the genre), that is for certain. I guess R&C still is a platformer to me because "jumping" is an essential part of the game. While you might not be jumping from platform to platform (well you do, but it isn't the core skill element of the game as it was with i.e. Mario in the older 2d era), it's still is absolutely required to dodge the bullets and attacks of your enemies. And the precision it requires is found in the dodging itself. When you are being shot at from all possible angles around you, jumping into the gaps of bullets as you dodge these bullets is very comparable to the skill required in older type of games when you had to jump on narrow platforms, or maneuvered your ship between rockets in most typical side scrollers. This is where you absolutely want spot-on, instantaneous and accurate low latency controls and feedback.

What makes the requirement for high framerate even more desirable is the point that you are also constantly rotating the camera to gain a view of what is happening around you, while maintaining full control of your character. Lots of rotating camera = lots of panning and lots of pixels moving constantly across the screen in high velocity.

Uncharted, or many other games, yes, I'd prefer those in 60fps too, but they are distinguishable in one major difference: You are either in walking mode or you are in shooting mode. Never both. Which means you never find yourself in the hectic gameplay a game like R&C offers where you are jumping between knives, rockets and bullets and perhaps even moving platforms. You wouldn't want that though - Uncharted isn't that type of game after all.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The difference is, R&C is a real platformer. You know, the genre of games we used to play and grow up with that required precision? Because jumping from platform to platform, whilst shooting and aiming is what really benefits a higher framerate.

The platform hit boxes in R&C are ludicrously imprecise in relation to real world geometry. In areas of the games it is possible to be standing on thin air and the game registers you standing on something solid while I n other places you can be standing on something and you slide off. The ballistics for the weapons seems accurate enough but I'd strongly contest the platforming is.

 

[Phil]

I'm fairly certain that most 2d platformers had this too. I faintly remember Mario on the Gameboy being able to stand with half of his pixelated feet hanging over platforms. Not that it matters much, the term platformer is probably quite subjective, but I clarified it in the last post as to why it I think it can be regarded a platformer and where the precision is required (in the dodging and shooting) which is benefited by a higher framerate. R&C is probably best described as a hybrid between a 3d jump n'run/platformer and a traditional sidescrolling shooter.

Even if the hit detection or the 'standing in thin air' is true, it still requires precise controls, as there is absolutely no mechanic that will magically make your character attach to the surface or complete a jump for you, like i.e. Uncharted or Tomb Raider (post remake) will when you slightly mistime a jump or the required distance of an obstacle.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Ouch. Flush. And that was the guaranteed sale of +1 of this game going down the toilet without thinking twice about it. What in gods name were they thinking?

They were thinking they are going to make sales without this kind of player mindset. Really, if one is so picky about things, then i question your claim that you were ever really going to get the game just because it was 60fps.

I don't see any correlation between that and how amazing the game looks right now just by looking at it.

 

[dogen]

just saying that R&C was never a game that required split second timing. It's not Shovel Knight.

It's more about feel than necessity.

They've established the series signature feel, and that includes low latency 60fps controls. The other benefits like being able to see better while turning quickly are nice, but not as important. My entire experience with ratchet and clank has taught me that they're great looking AND great feeling 3rd person run and gunners.

When I tried the new one at best buy I didn't know anything about it. But what I found was a game that felt far inferior to the originals. There was no way I was gonna walk away thinking it was anything but worse than how they used to be.

I'm normally totally fine with 30fps on console. I mean, I even played through shadow of the colossus and plenty of other >=30fps games, but I think once you establish the feel of an entire series of games you shouldn't change it unless it's an improvement.

It's like next year's cod running at 30fps. It just seems kind of crazy to me.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Even if the hit detection or the 'standing in thin air' is true, it still requires precise controls, as there is absolutely no mechanic that will magically make your character attach to the surface or complete a jump for you, like i.e. Uncharted or Tomb Raider (post remake) will when you slightly mistime a jump or the required distance of an obstacle.

The combat controls are tight and I think the platforming controls are deliberately loose so to not make it too difficult. The games are on the easy side as it is but I think this is a conscious decision by Insomniac.

 

[MrFox]

I don't mind the 30fps as long as it's a real full game this time. The last full game was A Crack in Time in 2009. It's been 7 years.

The PS2 era had three original full games. PS3 was a longer generation and got only two (plus Nexus which was half a game), now we get a remake. I hope it doesn't mean the PS4 generation will only get remakes.

 

[Phil]

They were thinking they are going to make sales without this kind of player mindset. Really, if one is so picky about things, then i question your claim that you were ever really going to get the game just because it was 60fps.

I don't see any correlation between that and how amazing the game looks right now just by looking at it.

I guess it's hard to quantify the importance of something perhaps subjective to a degree, but i am one of those few, who has, yes, bought all previous ratchet and clank games and have loved them for what they are. I have enough gaming experience to know what 30fps does to a game in terms of controls, latency and feel. And yes, as a fan that has bought just about every single Insomniac game (yes their resistance 30fps shooters too), the 30fps decision is a big big big letdown. It so disappointing, it becomes a matter of principle, not to buy this because of it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm fairly certain that most 2d platformers had this too.

Manic Miner on the Spectrum. Some jumps were designed for you to start levitating off the end off the block to land on your tows in mid air on the other side, requiring per-pixel alignment.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Old games did this all the time. The difference was of course that they used invisible hitboxes to further ramp up the difficulty. The sizes of the platform hit boxes in modern 3d platformers on the other hand are merely there for the sake of players conveinience. Like landing jumps was ever actually hard when you had double jumps and could further correct your trajectory by slowly gliding or rocket boosting to safety.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Just played through the whole game of Nexus yesterday in New Game Plus. The frame rate on that one goes really really low like 10 to 15 FPS. I hope that does not happen in this new game cause I just saw half an hour worth of gameplay of the new game and except for that horrible motion blur everything looks so Pristine and so beautiful. I literally fell in love again please Insomniac please make sure this games has silky smooth frame rate north of 30fps. Infamous Second Son was not 60 FPS but felt silky smooth as the framerate always remained in the range of 40 FPS.
I hope insomniac has same goals for that silky smooth feel of the game and please while at it remove that horrible motion blur it just doesn't belong in a ratchet game

 

[tuna]

I hope insomniac has same goals for that silky smooth feel of the game and please while at it remove that horrible motion blur it just doesn't belong in a ratchet game

Prepare to get your heart crushed then!

 

[Clukos]

Looks like Insomniac is delivering the goods with this one

 

[Deleted member 11852]

New gameplay

 

[RenegadeRocks]

So pretty !!!!