PS3 Extras : Are devs using them?

[INKster]

I think you fail to take the extreme difference in the amount of RAM to fill into account. (If you are comparing to PS2 in that comment) I'm very happy the HDD is standard, without it loading times from 2xBR could have been ugly.

I don't know about that.

Most initial games will ocupy less than the equivalent of a full dual layer DVD.
If such data is placed carefully on a BD-ROM -the outer area-, the reading speed is faster.

Later on, when games start pushing the limits, the hard drive will be an advantage, of course, but right now is only usefull for level caching when certain conditions are met.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Most initial games will ocupy less than the equivalent of a full dual layer DVD.
If such data is placed carefully on a BD-ROM -the outer area-, the reading speed is faster.

Not if the disc is Constant Linear Velocity though, where the motor speed is varied to keep data rates inform. I know BRD supports CLV but don't know if ti's the default/standard

 

[INKster]

Not if the disc is Constant Linear Velocity though, where the motor speed is varied to keep data rates inform. I know BRD supports CLV but don't know if ti's the default/standard

That's a good point.
As of yet, i have no clear info on that Blu-ray drive.

Do you think CLV mode will be able to keep up with the much faster RAM and CPU/GPU combination of PS3 ?

 

[Acert93]

But yea, it's definately a very good thing it's there, for one, it will make big difference with the way Korean devs approach the machine. MS pretty much shoot that market down with their choice of SKUs.

It will be interesting how this plays out, but while MS has a divided user base it also has a large sell through of HDDs and Live.

While they may have alienated some bases, the reverse is that the HDD is very expensive and is a hurdle to price reduction. MS's cheapest SKU is $200 cheaper than Sony's cheapest SKU. The $199 price point is pretty strategic for market pentration and shift from early adopters to the mainstream. While it ain't cool alienating possible markets (like Korean devs), I think it comes down to priorities.

MS and Sony are in touch spots. HDDs are expensive, BDR is expensive, fast BDRs are even more expensive, DVD9s may not hold enough content for some future games, etc. These are all nice options, but the core experience, gaming needs to be kept in mind. None of the big 3 are giving us much options. Wii is under powered and not next gen graphics; the 360 core sounds nice at $299 but then you get nailed with a $40 mem card and component cable; and the cheapest PS3 unit is $500 because it went with BDR and a standard HDD.

Considering 1GB of flash memory (USB) can be found for as little as $20 (new at retail) I think there could have been a better compromise in features + price point.

 

[expletive]

But yea, it's definately a very good thing it's there, for one, it will make big difference with the way Korean devs approach the machine. MS pretty much shoot that market down with their choice of SKUs.

I do agree that MS is at a disadvantage here. The positive spin would be that with over an 80% attach rate for the HD and their willingness to make some games "HDD Required", it does offset the idea that they have a fragmented userbase, somewhat.

 

[patsu]

PS3 is pioneering 4 fronts: Next-gen gaming, High-def, Digital Distribution and Home network (*Ouch*). Its economic value should pay off when at least 2 of those take off. Without PS3, Sony will need to invest/waste money to plough into those emerging trends anyway.

Regarding the HDD component: Besides optimizing for load time (for next-gen game play), it will prove valuable for digital distribution (like iTunes Music Store + iPod) and DLNA related services. Many of these things can be done with minimal/no PC involvement. These can translate into more convenience, choices and savings for the end users.

The key will be a really tight OS to manage all these activities. As for dev support, after this E3, I have little doubt that they will use all the hardware available to offset the "difficulty" in developing for Cell, or to explore new ground to differentiate themselves. Some of them are already using the HDD (GT HD), and others are trying out the new controller. All Sony really need to do now is to get back on track and communicate its vision and framework properly.

I am not a hardware guy. Is it true that Sony must use traditional HD technologies further down the road ? The theoretical max for Memory Stick Pro is 32 Gb right ? Is it hard to do a Linux driver to a built-in memory stick instead of a hard disk ?

 

[Fafalada]

I think the choice of optical drive (and its performance) meant they needed to include the HDD.

Well it's been hinted to me that their other plans necessitated standard HDD either way.
But I'm still not without concerns, knowing how some devs approach load times (your present employer in particular is one I don't trust in that regard), it's still an extra hoop to jump for good improvements.

So here's a little snuippet I got off an MS rep a couple of years ago, the two components that most affected xbox's price late in it's life time were the HD and the memory, which is likely why it's an optional addon this time

I was wondering if it's not the extra memory that actually resulted in optional HD...

I think PS2 DVD drives were rated for x2 speed.

PS2 drive was 4x DVD / 24x CD.

the greater areal density of that optical medium will certainly help loading times, IMHO.

Raw speed is about 2x faster, but with potentially longer seek times, and better peak utilization according to tests so far (possibly CLV as well, meaning full speed across entire disc unlike DVD which gets that on about 500MB of outer tracks only).
Still - the increase is nowhere Near proportional to memory increase. Granted this is a precedent for this generation - 360 is Well below that curve as well, but their optical drive is still a little better off.

Is it true that Sony must use traditional HD technologies further down the road ?

Not at all - actually given the current progression, I envision PSThree could well come packed with built in Flash drive instead of a HDD.

 

[PeterT]

Not at all - actually given the current progression, I envision PSThree could well come packed with built in Flash drive instead of a HDD.

I thought about this as well, but wouldn't using current (or near-future) flash technology for storage that is often used as a cache be somewhat risky? IIRC, flash still has a limited number of R/W cycles...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I thought about this as well, but wouldn't using current (or near-future) flash technology for storage that is often used as a cache be somewhat risky? IIRC, flash still has a limited number of R/W cycles...

It's a standard 2.5" PC ATA drive connection. Any flash drive that'd replace that would do. But Flash price per gigabyte is still a long way off from HDD value. A 40 GB flash drive for the price of a 40 GB HDD isn't going to happen any time too soon, when 4GB costs more already!

 

[Gubbi]

It's a standard 2.5" PC ATA drive connection. Any flash drive that'd replace that would do. But Flash price per gigabyte is still a long way off from HDD value. A 40 GB flash drive for the price of a 40 GB HDD isn't going to happen any time too soon, when 4GB costs more already!

Cost aside. It would be neat to cache an entire DVD in flash memory; Load times -> 0s

Cheers

 

[a688]

Cost aside. It would be neat to cache an entire DVD in flash memory; Load times -> 0s

Cheers

I don't think you guys realize that flash memory != RAM. Flash memory is SLOWER than hard drives and has limited write/read cycles. Apparently CompactFlash 3.0 is supposed to max out around 66 MB/s but I don't know how true that is. CF 2 is 16 MB/s and MemoryStick Pro is only 20 MB/s. And those speeds are max, not constant.

 

[Gubbi]

I don't think you guys realize that flash memory != RAM. Flash memory is SLOWER than hard drives and has limited write/read cycles. Apparently CompactFlash 3.0 is supposed to max out around 66 MB/s but I don't know how true that is. CF 2 is 16 MB/s and MemoryStick Pro is only 20 MB/s. And those speeds are max, not constant.

Wrong. Bandwidth is decided by the internal bus width of the flash device. If need be this could be very wide. Write cycles are long but you can write a lot of blocks simultaneously.

The real advantage is read latency. Harddisks have seek times measured in miliseconds, flash has latency measured in 100s of nanoseconds, it's at least 4 decimal orders of magnitude faster.

Cheers

 

[Fafalada]

IIRC, flash still has a limited number of R/W cycles...

So does a HDD. And just about every other R/W storage medium.

Apparently CompactFlash 3.0 is supposed to max out around 66 MB/s but I don't know how true that is. CF 2 is 16 MB/s and MemoryStick Pro is only 20 MB/s. And those speeds are max, not constant.

Like Gubbi said, bus width of Flash memory can be varied much like with regular memory. At any rate, all PS3 would need to replace regular HDD is something on-par with it bandwith wise, which means no more then 30MB/sec.
And with the seek-speed advantage that would likely speed up overall performance anyway.

But Flash price per gigabyte is still a long way off from HDD value. A 40 GB flash drive for the price of a 40 GB HDD isn't going to happen any time too soon, when 4GB costs more already!

We'd only need 20GB though , and flash memory costs have been dropping like a rock over last few years, while capacity is already increasing much faster then micro-HDDs, at current rate, we could be seeing 20+GB flash cards in less then 2 years.
And what Sony would need to stick inside a console doesn't have the same constraints on physical size.

 

[MasaC]

Here´s a diagram showing six degrees of freedom:

http://oemagazine.com/fromTheMagazine/apr01/images/tutorial_fig1.jpg

Here's a video where Phil Harrison demonstrates the new PS3 controller with the six degrees of freedom motion sensor capability:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4660-12331_7-6519205.html

I can't wait for the traditional 2-stick control scheme in console first person shooter games to be replaced with this motion sensor technology.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Thanks for the video clip. That confirms 6 real DOF and Phil was clear in defining anglare and linear motion, showing it in the duck demo well.. That is the best possible application in the standard controller and I hope it works as well it should. This is just what I and friends were saying should be included way back on the original PlayStation.

 

[rounin]

Thanks for the video clip. That confirms 6 real DOF and Phil was clear in defining anglare and linear motion, showing it in the duck demo well.. That is the best possible application in the standard controller and I hope it works as well it should. This is just what I and friends were saying should be included way back on the original PlayStation.

Yes. We still have so many people calling it a "tilt" controller...even the press

http://gamerevolution.com/manifesto/view.php?id=156

 

[MasaC]

This is just what I and friends were saying should be included way back on the original PlayStation.

Funny you would say that. Phil said in this interview with eurogamer the motion sensor controller has been thought of since 1994. Also he mentions the harddrive is a standard ATA drive and suggests you can put in any standard 2,5" PC harddrive of your choice.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=64667

 

[a688]

Wrong. Bandwidth is decided by the internal bus width of the flash device. If need be this could be very wide. Write cycles are long but you can write a lot of blocks simultaneously.

I/O Bandwidth is ultimately determine by the interface to the external world which matters becuase you'll need that data sooner or later. A car doesn't go 8000RPM, it goes 60 MPH. Also you can't read what hasn't been written.

So does a HDD. And just about every other R/W storage medium.

You're not clever pointing out that everything has a limit

Like Gubbi said, bus width of Flash memory can be varied much like with regular memory. At any rate, all PS3 would need to replace regular HDD is something on-par with it bandwith wise, which means no more then 30MB/sec.
And with the seek-speed advantage that would likely speed up overall performance anyway.

HDD's max sustained transfer is ONLY 30MB/s? HDD's sustained transfer depends on the drive (density/mechanics). Also, a problem that you'll run into (at least with IDE devices) is the CPU utilization. Check out the CPU utilization of this RAM disk http://www.silentpcreview.com/article49-page2.html compared to a standard HDD. How well do consoles handle the IDE interface / cpu cycles needed to perform IO? Are they much better than standard PCs? Granted the access speed and transfer is faster (this is a RAM, not a flash drive) but at what cost?

We'd only need 20GB though , and flash memory costs have been dropping like a rock over last few years, while capacity is already increasing much faster then micro-HDDs, at current rate, we could be seeing 20+GB flash cards in less then 2 years.
And what Sony would need to stick inside a console doesn't have the same constraints on physical size.

Too bad those drives will cost more than even a PS3 when they come out.

 

[rounin]

HDD's max sustained transfer is ONLY 30MB/s? HDD's sustained transfer depends on the drive (density/mechanics). Also, a problem that you'll run into (at least with IDE devices) is the CPU utilization. Check out the CPU utilization of this RAM disk http://www.silentpcreview.com/article49-page2.html compared to a standard HDD. How well do consoles handle the IDE interface / cpu cycles needed to perform IO? Are they much better than standard PCs? Granted the access speed and transfer is faster (this is a RAM, not a flash drive) but at what cost?

Good job sir. You managed to not read the very site you decided to use . Its a good thing (not to mention before I even went to the site, this was blatantly obvious).

% CPU Utilization: Why 71%? Because the data stream is fast enough to keep the CPU that busy. From a work point of view, this is a good thing, processor cycles are not being wasted.

Too bad those drives will cost more than even a PS3 when they come out.

You really never know for sure I think.

 

[MrWibble]

We'd only need 20GB though , and flash memory costs have been dropping like a rock over last few years, while capacity is already increasing much faster then micro-HDDs, at current rate, we could be seeing 20+GB flash cards in less then 2 years.
And what Sony would need to stick inside a console doesn't have the same constraints on physical size.

We'd probably only need whatever the minimum the TRC says we can expect is - we might not be allowed to assume we can have the whole HDD to ourselves!

I could imagine that the PSThree might have a minimal amount of solid-state, and provide an external interface for hooking up something bigger - maybe with a drive housing as an add-on peripheral.

Or alternatively, maybe it would still be ok for it to be large enough to contain a 2.5" drive anyway.. it's not like they're enormous...

I can't believe we're talking about PSThree already!