PS2 fanboi topic: is this thing finally coming into its own?

[bukima]

Silent Hill 3

Nice modelling but we are pass the stage of 1-2 high polygon 'demos'.

You do know that people have actually played Silent Hill 3, and it is all in-game?

 

[marconelly!]

ZoE2 and SH3 look friggin amazing. Art direction in both is just fantastic. SH3 probably has the most believable real time character models that I've ever seen, and ZoE2 visual effects and overal design are just

DMC2 looks pretty crappy, though.

PS: How the heck did they do 4x AA in baldur's gate anyway? Does it run in like 320*240 or something, or do they do it in multiple passes or something?

The game is internally rendeing at 1280x480 and scales that down to 640x480i. Basically it has 2X FSAA from what I understand.

 

[Grall]

(Could everybody please ignore Chap and his infantile outbursts in this thread please? )


Fafalada:

Thanks for your uber-cool info! The mystery that is PS2 is unraveling more and more.

The PA sounds much like some top-secret military device, heh heh! Is it placed in a black briefcase chained to the wrist of a guy with two secret service bodyguards at his side?

About managing data-flow for VU0, can it set up DMA transfers on its own, or at least can it interrupt the main processor to get the DMA:ing done?

Does this mean things like procedural texturing etc is problematic as well, or is it possible to (with some effort, I assume) program a framework to deal with this? Things like procedural texturing was stuff we expected when the PS2 was announced but since really hasn't taken off at all...

Since DTS seems to be so cheap, surely DD must be viable also? It can't be THAT much more expensive to do, that seems completely unreasonable...

Cool about the dedicated 2MB sound, considering what the poor little SNES could do with 64kb, it should be possible to do awesome orchestrations! Can that DSP (dual DSPs, since it has dual sound cores?) be made to make 3D sound and stuff? SNES could be made to do DPL surround, could PS2 maybe manage DPL2, some occlusion stuff etc?

What is the bus speed between IOP and the DMAC anyway, isn't it something like 50MB/s? In that case shouldn't it be a nice place to stuff away odd bits and bobs like menu screens etc? Maybe that old PS processor could even be used to do some compression...

Speaking of compression, you spoke in the past of using the MPEG2 processor to do texture (de)compression, with the exception there were some issues involved. What exactly is the problem here?


*G*

 

[wazoo]

(

Does this mean things like procedural texturing etc is problematic as well, or is it possible to (with some effort, I assume) program a framework to deal with this? Things like procedural texturing was stuff we expected when the PS2 was announced but since really hasn't taken off at all...

If you mean on the fly generated textures, Drakan does this. WRC uses Nurbs (ot its little brother) to generate landscape.

 

[simplicity]

The GDCE 2002 talk "Hard-Tuning the PS2" has lots of details and screen shots about the Performance Analyzer:

http://www.gamasutra.com/gdce/2002/jason_doig.zip

You may need to register (free) at Gamasutra to get the link to work.

 

[Phil]

Phil:

No, I must have missed that stuff about the PA2. What's the address to your site please?

Sorry to hear Naughty's locking themselves into the cartoony platform genre, they've been doing that for like ten years now. I'd like to see them develop a serious Turrican-style shooter with all their technical expertise. That could bring a serious wow-factor to the visuals, as they have some damn smart coders over there.

Didn't know GT4 was so near release, nor even that one was in development but hey, I should have been able to figure that one out myself... Any game that does well usually spawns a sequel, hehe! Anyway, driving really isn't my style, but if it helps to further the state of the PS2 art then I'm all for it!

Grall, I wrote you a PM with the link to the file. Not sure if you saw it or not...

Anyway, about Naughty Dog - I personally am very glad to hear that they are working on a sequal. I don't quite see them fitting well with a Shooter of some kind and I think platformers is something they do very well. What's certainly good news though is the fact that they're giving away the engine, or at least the approach their using (Insomniac used it for Ratchet & Clank) and I'm sure more will follow. Criterion is another very talented dev outthere - I'm still amazed how clean and fast Burnout 2 looks. Their Renderware 2 is really good stuff.

The next Final Fantasy and Gran Turimso will definately be quite impressive. I've heard out of various interviews that Polyphony is working pretty hard on GT4 which is supposed to have online-gaming included and added weather effects. They also stated something about real time damage, but as of yet, I'm not too sure if it will really make it. After all not all car makers are willing to allow damage.. :?

 

[Guest]

Hey, doncha hate me. I was simply trying to point out that PS2 is coming together, but a little too late. Sometimes PS2 fanboi craCKs me up with their constant untapped powers talk.

 

[randycat99]

Does anybody know if that Lord of the Ring Two Towers games is using the Renderware engine? It looks fabulous, like Renderware tweaked to the hilt!

 

[marconelly!]

Does anybody know if that Lord of the Ring Two Towers games is using the Renderware engine? It looks fabulous, like Renderware tweaked to the hilt!

I don't think so. EA has it's own middleware, but TTT was made by Stormfront studios - guys that know their tricks when it comes to graphics (they also made Bloodwake for Xbox) I think they are making their own engines.

 

[randycat99]

I have to say they did a damn good job! The way they got their engine running, there is absolutely no worry of "not enough characters onscreen at one time". They can pile in more than you can handle and they are moving quite quickly with realistic, adaptive AI in-effect and most of all, it still looks good! It's literally like a tick behind Baldur's Gate technical graphics level, but totally clobbers it in the amount of on-screen action that can be occuring. The artwork put into this game makes it a very strong showing, regardless of whose "tick" it is behind, though.

 

[marconelly!]

The last three levels in that game are just nuts. Really great looking. I love how they made that game, and I was very sceptical about LOTR hack&slash concept.

 

[-tkf-]

Hey, doncha hate me. I was simply trying to point out that PS2 is coming together, but a little too late. Sometimes PS2 fanboi craCKs me up with their constant untapped powers talk.

You are the cracker, the XBOX with it's "3 times the power" has steadily underperformed since it's launch, a could have been great PC-GAME turned in to a -30 FPS game with a best ever Console FPS control but shit compared to PC control. MGS2 now an OLD PS2 game performed and maybe even looked better than the XBOX port (including 3 times the POWAR).

You can't take away that the X-Box has some incredible looking games, it's just a shame that outside the US NOONE enjoys them in HDTV. Actually the casual gamer wouldn't know the difference between XBOX graphics and PS2 graphics, if he could he wouldn't choose the PS2 and MS wouldn't have to give away two games with every console.

So about the next gen games.. i can't wait....

 

[Nick Laslett]

I must agree that the PS2 is really starting to come together.

Developers are starting to get a handle on the complexities of the system.

Burnout 2 was a bit of a revelation. The Criterion team really pulled out all the stops. It was the first driving game that I had seen that nearly matched the beautiful perfection of GT3.

Both ZOE2 and Silent Hill 3 look pretty amazing. 480p is becoming a standard feature in the next generation of games this is a good thing.

The Primal demo really impressed me. They have put a lot of effort into a very high quality presentation. It sets the standard for 3D person adventure games from what I have seen.

I can’t wait to see what Snowblind Studios do with the Everquest adventure they are developing for Sony.

The Sony Liverpool team that did Wipeout Fusion have been pretty quite. I would like to see what their second game looked like for the platform.

It will be great if Hideo Kojima is able to develop another MGS title on the PS2 before moving onto the next generation. His team are very talented at wringing improvements from the hardware.

Naughty Dog do not use the Performance Analyser. They hand optimise the code. They even have their own development language, based on Lisp. Jak & Daxter 2 is sure to be as impressive as the first game when it debuts at E3. Neither SMS or Blinx match J&D for visuals, camera, etc.

Onimusha will jump to real time 3D with the next edition. This is the only million selling franchise Capcom have at the moment. I’m sure it will be really impressive when they get it done.

Then there is the next LOTR from Stormfront Studios. I’m sure another year of development time will yield even more impressive results.

 

[Goldni]

" Neither SMS or Blinx match J&D for visuals, camera, etc. "

I'd have to agree and disagree. J & D's water looked worse than many N64 games' water presentation. SMS still has the best rt 3D interactive water of any game. And there are some areas of SMS that look incredible..but I'd agree that the entire package on a whole was sub par (ie textures).

 

[Guest]

Hey, doncha hate me. I was simply trying to point out that PS2 is coming together, but a little too late. Sometimes PS2 fanboi craCKs me up with their constant untapped powers talk.

You are the cracker, the XBOX with it's "3 times the power" has steadily underperformed since it's launch, a could have been great PC-GAME turned in to a -30 FPS game with a best ever Console FPS control but shit compared to PC control. MGS2 now an OLD PS2 game performed and maybe even looked better than the XBOX port (including 3 times the POWAR).

You can't take away that the X-Box has some incredible looking games, it's just a shame that outside the US NOONE enjoys them in HDTV. Actually the casual gamer wouldn't know the difference between XBOX graphics and PS2 graphics, if he could he wouldn't choose the PS2 and MS wouldn't have to give away two games with every console.

So about the next gen games.. i can't wait....

Hey yeah, what is that rant for?
You do know of first generation games, ports, textures, FSAA, pixel effects, image quality, 720p, 1010i and multitexturing(probably some more i am forgetting ATM)?

 

[-tkf-]

Hey yeah, what is that rant for?
You do know of first generation games, ports, textures, FSAA, pixel effects, image quality, 720p, 1010i and multitexturing(probably some more i am forgetting ATM)?

The rant was for you.. and it won't be the last one..

All what you mentioned i have on my PC.. since.. a long time before MS took a pc added encryption and wrapped it in a big black box.

What was your point ? it kind a vanished in the feature list..

 

[Grall]

Chap, tkf:
This kind of bickering is unwanted in my thread. Take your sillyness elsewhere! Start one of your own or whatever, just don't stay here.

Don't post unless you have something to contribute to the *TOPIC*, which is technical innovation and improvements on the PS2 console.


Phil:
Thanks for the link man. I appreciate it. I would like to see Naughty trying their hand at something ELSE than another god-damned Mario64 clone, even the devs at Eidos got tired of making Lara after Lara game, won't these guys start to puke from all the happy cuddly colors and models they have to produce?

Anyway, which companies/games are expected to make a big showing at this year's E3?


*G*

 

[Fafalada]

Heh, dunno what the trouble is with PA being more widely available.

About managing data-flow for VU0, can it set up DMA transfers on its own, or at least can it interrupt the main processor to get the DMA:ing done?

You have interrupts and some other means of synchronization yeah. As I said, problem is different cases demand different handling. Not to mention DMA has a startup penalty which means too small transfers will be wasting a lot of time. Some methods may use CPU and VU0 synced together closely, rather then relying on DMA, but again this isn't always good (and code gets even more difficult to maintain).

Procedural textures have mostly linear dataflow, so that's not the problem. I'd argue their application scope is currently not very big though - Drakkan's landscape engine is a nice fit for their use, but it's questionable what would you do with them in some other games that can't be done faster without them.
And there's always the issue of artists having less control over procedurally generated data.

Since DTS seems to be so cheap, surely DD must be viable also? It can't be THAT much more expensive to do, that seems completely unreasonable...

Well sound is not my expertise, but I think it would be viable. But if DTS is cheaper, what would be the point?

What is the bus speed between IOP and the DMAC anyway, isn't it something like 50MB/s?

If I recall right it's closer to 600mb/s. Either way, if you have free mem left there, it's usable.

Speaking of compression, you spoke in the past of using the MPEG2 processor to do texture (de)compression, with the exception there were some issues involved. What exactly is the problem here?

Can't say that I remember exactly what you're referring to... but anyway, the big issue is that you need to write a fair bit of code before you have a system that can utilize IPU effectively. And the chip does have a speed limit so you can't just use it all over without any considerations. However... IMO at least, the returns are very worthwhile.
But do note that this opinion isn't shared by everyone, as most devs don't bother with the chip at all.

 

[-tkf-]

Chap, tkf:
This kind of bickering is unwanted in my thread. Take your sillyness elsewhere! Start one of your own or whatever, just don't stay here.

*G*

Noted, i mostly lurk here, incredible wealth of info, Chap posting all that Chap just F*cked it up and pulled it down to ign levels

I will hunt him in his own threads..

*LOVE*

 

[Vince]

ZoE2 and SH3 look friggin amazing.

Amen. Between Silent Hill 3, Halo2 and DoomIII - it's just amazing how visually appealing games are becoming.