PlayStation Platform Standardization

Hi DM,

I think you'll find that a lot of backwards compatibility was put in for the devs as well - the sound formats seem similar and there are libraries that share and extend library data formats from PS1 to PS2.

On the whole PS2 is as balanced a design as any other - it was designed to play games on a home TV, and seems to do that reasonably well. There may be functionality lacking compared to GC and Xbox in some areas,
but there is also functionality lacking in Xbox and GC compared to PS2 in other areas.
GC has some obvious weaknesses ( such as full AA only on half height buffers due to lack of frame buffer cache) but on the whole devs will cope with any platform oddities...
 
* "We expect to apply Cell to a wide range of applications related to broadband networks, including digital consumer electronics and mobile terminals…the Cell development project is proceeding as planned." - Takeshi Nakagawa, a senior vice president with Toshiba



DeadmeatGA wrote:
I don't think even Sony headquarter cares.


See here:



* TOKYO — Sony Corp. and its Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI) unit on Monday (April 21) announced a $1.7 billion (¥200 billion) investment plan for 65-nm process technology on 300-mm wafers.

* Sony's investment will beneficial not only to SCEI but to whole Sony group, said Kunitake Ando, president and Sony Group COO. Ando said Sony is buying nearly $8.4 billion worth of ICs annually.

* This announcement by SCEI and Sony is a confirmation of the progress we've made with the Cell design itself, of our advances in semiconductor technology to help it reach its full potential and of Cell's far-reaching implications for a wide variety of applications. - Dr. John Kelly, senior vice president and group executive for the IBM Technology Group

Deadmeat, can you stop your bullet-time worthy performance not didge the argument Vince made ?

Either put up or shut up, it is that simple: no insults, no flames.

I will almost guarantee you that Kutaragi will have different ideas about the future of entertainment in a couple of years, abondon CELL, and comes up with something "better". This is Kutaragi Ken's nature.

If they came up with a successor to Cell which is better than Cell or if they came up with Cell 2.0, why not use it ?

See, your little game goes around and around the same notion: you think Kutaragi and his staff ( not to mention the engineers they collaborate with to come up with the "better ideas", which includes worl experts in top notch universities and senior MPU Architects from some of the biggest companies in the world [like IBM and Toshiba] ) are clueless morons that somehow managed to create ( yes, the SAME guys who worked on the PlayStation 2 architecture, the PSP and are working on the PlayStation 3 ) one of the most advanced Hardwares of its time ( in 1994 the PSOne was the hottest topic between Japanese game companies: Namco was simply floored by the PSOne design and Ken Kutaragi was deeply involved with the PSOne project ) and a ultra-successful consle like PlayStation 2 ( play Silent Hill 3, Z.O.E. 2, GT3, watch GT4 videos, play WRC2, watch WRC3, etc... remember that the PlayStation 2 came 1+ year earlier than the two competitors [two PC product cycles] and look at the competition's games... yeah, baaaaadly flawed design ).

Cell is not the Emotion Engine... Cell is destined to morph and permeate in as many products as they see fit and the important issue of the APU ISA compatibility across all products ( an Apulet/Software Cell can basically execute on any APU, on any device, on any network ) was thought to help this scenario and make it a reality.

Have you ever given the thought to the possibility that SCE chooses a Cell 2.0 or a "better than Cell' idea that takes care of compatibility of old Cell code and that is designed to be modular and scalable just like Cell was designed ( this is a design goal that, IMHO, will stay as it has many benefits in the path towards pervasive computing as a reality for the masses ) ?

Maybe Sony, IBM and Toshiba definition of "better" includes taking care of the Cell 1.0 compatibility problem and carry on the Apulet legacy ? :)

Maybe, a solution which would just throw away all the progresses Cell has made would not be considered better than Cell or not good enough ( until the problem is taken care of ) ?

IPv6 did not kill RIP, OSPF or BGP: the concepts these Routing Protocols were founded on lived and evolved with the evolution of IP.

SCE has seen the market evolving and has tried to stay on the bleeding edge of technology pushing for innovation aggressively.

Nintendo has done the complete opposite after the SNES years... they stuck their head in the sand pretty much ignoring the Sony threat, kept until the GCN high licensing fees and were not anywhere helping 3rd parties the way they should have ( the N64 days of throwing out one of your own American employees, who is there to learn how to assist better the American 3rd party developers in coding for the RCP, from a meeting with SGI did leave its mark and the treatment of 3rd parties on the GCN was more like "ok, if you really want to, come aboard we made it easier to code this time, but we will not loose sleep if you do not support the GCN in mass" ) developed at their own slow pace without an ounce of additional aggressiviness, refused to learn from their mistakes ( in the N64 days, before launching the GCN, they said "well, we made a mistake not assuring a costant flux of quality titles to the N64, etc..." and now they are saying "well, we made a mistake with the GCN not assuring a constant flux of quality games": see the issue ? ) and did not really observe that the market was evolving towards multimedia centers rather than pure gaming consoles.
 
PS2 is from 2000, a comperable platform in your 'balanced design of an XBox' would have been a PentiumII 450 with GeForce2 [NV15] and 32MB of PC133/DDR266.

If you can't see that PlayStation2's design is superior to this

I hate to recycle this, but since you brought it up again, even for a 2000 system, it was already inferior to DC in some regards.

Furthermore, i believe the the "old" 2000 Xbox had a AMD chip, 64mb ddr, HD and network adaptor. It does 50mpps, but then with PC based hardware, we know its going to have more advanced features, better IQ and all.

Soooo, i wont be so clear cuttedly dismiss the potential of 2000 Xbox as "inferior" to PS2.... :oops:
 
As for the success of Cell, i dont see why people are going ga-ga over something yet fully known.

Sure, we know about the patent and its theory theory, but what about its practical-ness. Costs? Actual performance? Support? Implementations? Timing? And so much more variables we cannot pinpoint to determind how far penetration its success will be.

Sure we can quote a few Sony execs' and their dreamy dreams, but unless we get concrete evidence, Cell is just a wildcard, and goes along the many other potentially cool hardware of the past.

As of now, i would say BR has more potential to fully replace VCR/DVD than Cell is to become an all-conquering Home Entertainment center.

Finally, why are we so sure of Sony Playstation success again? I think in this hispeed tech world, we have seen enough of rags->riches and vice versa happenings, to know that we should be less hippy yappy, even for Playstation.
 
Why? 50mpps is from Opening Xbox book. For that time frame, the Nvidia chip has to be GF2/Ultra/X, i would say its rendering features are kinda better than GS, no? And with PC based hardware and 64mb of ram, can we agree that textures superiority and 480p are a given too?
 
50 MVertices/s would be akin to the ~112 MVrtices/s the NV2A does...

Max Transform rate considering simple perspective Transform.

PlayStation 2 in that case would have still lead the way with 102.5 MVertices/s ( twin VUs running at 300 MHz: 5 cycles on VU1 and 7 cycle on VU0 ).

Also you have to take into account that as far as lighting is concerned the GeForce 1 and GeForce 2 sucked quite bad and they would be loosing quite a lot of perfomance per light added.

Fill-rate wise they would have been quite a bit behind the Graphics Synthesyzer.

The CPU would have been slower too and this would have affected over-all game performance ( all dynamic T&L would have been done through the CPU too )...

Yes, you might be able to bump-map few objects here and there, but if you add 2xAA and bump-mapping you will hit fill-rate limitations (real-world fuill-rate would not be that high... being bandwidth limited has its disadvantages ).
 
I might be wrong, but a GF2 has better lighting than PS2.. If 50mpps(<- yes i know its just a theorectically max figure) is right, than it has to be a GF2Ultra+, since the Ultra is at 30mpps IIRC.

Well the thing is, i am not saying 2000 Xbox will be totally superior to PS2, but just that i cant see how far superior PS2 is to 2000 Xbox design.

Good in some, bad in others would be more politically correct imho. :oops:

ANYWAY, i think the basic visual difference between 2000 Xbox and PS2, might be like how Giants look on PC vs PS2.
 
chaphack said:
Why? 50mpps is from Opening Xbox book. For that time frame, the Nvidia chip has to be GF2/Ultra/X, i would say its rendering features are kinda better than GS, no? And with PC based hardware and 64mb of ram, can we agree that textures superiority and 480p are a given too?

Correct me if I'm wrong as it's been awhile, but: The PS2 was launched in March of 2000 in Japan. The GeForce2 GTS was released in Spring 2000, the Ultra in the fall.

You do realize that the NV15 has a fraction of the flexibility that the DX8 NV2A has. It's DX7 style T&L front-end output around 25MT/sec in theory. It's NSR is hardly comperable to the NV2A's - so much for per-pixel useage in game.

Anti-Aliasing... hah! Your back to OGSS, nice try using that.

Better than the GS? Just like the VU's can kick around the NV2A's Vertex Shaders? How do you think the NV15 would fair? We can play this game all day Chap.
 
I might be wrong, but a GF2 has better lighting than PS2.. If 50mpps(<- yes i know its just a theorectically max figure) is right, than it has to be a GF2Ultra+, since the Ultra is at 30mpps IIRC.

I believe it's cost more per vertex light.

but yes tha setup would be comparable but not as extensible to the PS2 tech at the time.
 
The PS2 was launched in March of 2000 in Japan. The GeForce2 GTS was released in Spring 2000, the Ultra in the fall.

2000 Xbox was meant to launch in Sept-Nov period, to compete with Sony US launch IIRC. It is likely to be a GF2Ultra+ chip based on that 50mpps figure.

The problem is, i CAN say that 2000 Xbox is not entirely inferior to PS2. It is good is some while not as good in others. Can we agree on that? :oops:
 
chaphack said:
The problem is, i CAN say that 2000 Xbox is not entirely inferior to PS2. It is good is some while not as good in others. Can we agree on that? :oops:

We can agree but that doesn't rectify the inaccuracies you're stating. The GTS is a very weak design compared to the NV2A, it's TCL theoretical max is almost getting hit in current PS2 games, DOT3 had something like a 50% hit in preformance if I remember Baumann's comment right, Anti-Aliasing was a joke comapred to the MSAA on the NV2x. If we're compering games from PS2 and XBox with NV2A, what do you think would happen if you used a NV15 instead?

No Pixel Shaders, Hardwired DX7 style T&L, limited usability of DOT3, AA, et al... The Voodoo5 compered with the NV15, that should tell you something.

I think master Carmack said it best:

"The short answer is that the GeForce3 is fantastic. I haven't had such an impression of raising the performance bar since the Voodoo 2 came out, and there are a ton of new features for programmers to play with." - John Carmack
 
If we're compering games from PS2 and XBox with NV2A, what do you think would happen if you used a NV15 instead?

We wouldnt know. ;)

I am sure both console gaming only systems will get the best of the best in optimisation, over bloated PC system.

But i would say, NV1A is more likely, with >GF2Ultra performance. As i said, it will basically be like Giants PC vs PS2. More textures more IQ and dash of pixel effects over more polygons, more framebuffer effects.

As such, texture vibrant games like Sacrifise/B&W would look better on XB2000 while fillrate crazy game like MGS2/ZOE2 will run faster on PS2.
 
And master Carmack also said this,

"Per-pixel shading that uses cube environment mapping normalized dot product bump maps looks incredibly good across an entire world. Everyone at id is way psyched about developing new content with the GeForce2 GTS."
John Carmack, president, id Software



:p
 
chaphack said:
And master Carmack also said this,

"Per-pixel shading that uses cube environment mapping normalized dot product bump maps looks incredibly good across an entire world. Everyone at id is way psyched about developing new content with the GeForce2 GTS."
John Carmack, president, id Software



:p

lets not pull out quote wars (he doesn't mention performence here)

eDIT: it;s acutally more like endorsement when taken in that context.
 
EE + GS >> Duron 600 MHz + GeForce 2 GTS

I do not think I can agree to the XB2000 = N64 and PlayStation 2 = PSOne as at the end I would expect the PlayStation 2 to pull off more polygons per second and those would be better looking as well ( way better lighting for example ).

It is a good thing the Xbox waited 1 extra year...
 
chaphack said:
"Per-pixel shading that uses cube environment mapping normalized dot product bump maps looks incredibly good across an entire world. Everyone at id is way psyched about developing new content with the GeForce2 GTS." John Carmack, president, id Software:p

Oh yes, I can just see you getting excited and shouting, "Look at teh Pixel effex!!!" over images like these utilizing the limited NSR and hardwired TCL of the NV15:


<img src=http://www.riva3d.com/geforce2/isle/morg006.jpg height=120 width=150> <img src=http://www.riva3d.com/geforce2/isle/morg022.jpg height=120 width=150> <img src=http://www.riva3d.com/geforce2/isle/morg003.jpg height=120 width=150> <img src=http://www.riva3d.com/geforce2/Giants/Mecc_kabuto1.jpg height=120 width=150>
 
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