Planning an upgrade

[Ozymandis]

This is what I'm currently planning on getting:

-AMD Athlon XP 3000+ (Barton Core) 400 FSB
-CORSAIR MEMORY XMS Extreme Memory Speed Series 512MB 64MX64 PC-3200C2PT With Platinum - Silver Heat Spreader OEM x 2
-ASUS A7N8X Deluxe
-Western Digital Raptor x 2
-ANTEC LIFE STYLE SERIES SONATA PIANO BLACK CASE w/ 380w power supply
-ATi Radeon 9800 pro

Anything I need to know? I've been out of the loop re: PC hardware for a while now, so I wasn't really certain what I wanted. Was originally going to get a P4, but I think I'd rather have an AMD because of the price difference and also because I want Dolby Digital for my games. Speaking of which, what games support the nForce and how good well does it work?

What's a good heatsink/fan for that CPU? I'm not really trying to overclock to the max, but I wouldn't mind some free speed

 

[jvd]

hey i dunno what your running now but if there are no big games you need to play before the end of sept i would suggest waiting for the athlon 64s. It be a waste to buy now and in 3 months be able to get a 64bit cpu that will have an upgrade future. The athlons are basicly dead.

 

[Ozymandis]

My system now is pretty slow. I haven't upgraded it in forever; when I bought this stuff it was brand new on the market:

AMD Tbird 1.2 oc'ed to 1.3
384 megs PC133
Abit KT133 mobo
Elsa GeForce 3
SB Live Value

I'm long past due for an upgrade. Was going to do it in January, but didn't have the $$ then. So I'd rather not wait any longer. Especially since I just bought a new LCD monitor and my current system can't run new games acceptably at that screen's native resolution

 

[Blade]

What games do you need this horsepower for?

Everything looks nice.. and you're willing to spend money apparently (considering that you're buying top-end components, despite the price/performance ratio*) so I guess I have to complement you here. Nice system.

If you're making it for stuff like HL2 and Doom III, though.. let me suggest holding off on the 9800. That card would probably be my choice too (if I bought today) but seeing as how the next wave is so close.. it might be wise to wait for Fall/Winter.

Autumn is supposedly going to bring video cards that'll blow away the 9800 in certain benchmarks. I'll probably replace my vanilla GF3 with one of those babies.. that is, if the stories are correct and the cards easily outperform current monsters.

* CPU

 

[Dave H]

If you're going to buy now, don't underestimate the 800 MHz FSB P4s: with a proper mobo, they're extraordinarily fast. A 2.6C on an i875 or even i865 is an easy match for your 3000+/nforce2 combo. (Indeed, most reviews of the 3200+ had it beat overall by a 2.4C/i875.) Of course that involves some extra expense on the motherboard side; I see the street price of the 3000+ hasn't really held up, so that may indeed be the price/performance winner. And there is the Dolby sound to speak of. All I'm saying is, check benchmarks carefully lest you think AMD's rating system still tracks at all closely with P4 MHz on a high-end platform.

Other than that, I'd step in with another vote for waiting, if you can. K8's 64-bitness won't mean a damn thing to the consumer market within the lifetime of your new computer, but the low-latency of the integrated memory controller should make Athlon64 a very worthwhile contender for game-playing in particular. Meanwhile, Prescott will run much cooler than today's top-end P4s, which should come in handy if you're looking to overclock or just want a quiet PC running in spec.

Of course, just because those chips will be available two or three months from now doesn't mean they'll make it to your <$400 mobo + CPU target much before the end of the year. The A64 3100+ (1.8 GHz) will probably make your price range, but I'm not sure if/when Intel will be releasing Prescotts at speeds under 3.4 GHz.

If you can stand to wait until Q1, the launch of R420/NV40 ought to push the price of that 9800 down quite a bit.

Of course there's always something better around the corner, and there are some great CPU deals in your price range right now: the 3000+ because of AMD's price weakness, and a low-clocked P4C with an i865/i875 for value and overclockability.

 

[Ozymandis]

What games do you need this horsepower for?

Everything looks nice.. and you're willing to spend money apparently (considering that you're buying top-end components, despite the price/performance ratio*) so I guess I have to complement you here. Nice system.

If you're making it for stuff like HL2 and Doom III, though.. let me suggest holding off on the 9800. That card would probably be my choice too (if I bought today) but seeing as how the next wave is so close.. it might be wise to wait for Fall/Winter.

Autumn is supposedly going to bring video cards that'll blow away the 9800 in certain benchmarks. I'll probably replace my vanilla GF3 with one of those babies.. that is, if the stories are correct and the cards easily outperform current monsters.

* CPU

Well, it's not like there's anything I'm really dying to play. U2/NWN/UT2k3, like I said, and I also want to have a respectable rig the day Half-life 2 comes out I hate waiting though. Once I've made up my mind, I'm going to do it. Provided that my gf doesn't get crazy mad about me spending all this money, of course

The Athlons with 400mhz FSB seem to perform pretty well in games (U2 engine). I don't feel like going nuts with overclocking; I just want out-of-box speed and whatever else I can get on top of that is gravy. Yeah, I could go Pentium 4, but the prices on those get pretty crazy.

 

[Ozymandis]

If you can stand to wait until Q1,

No chance. I'd like to have a new rig before the end of September.

 

[jvd]

Other than that, I'd step in with another vote for waiting, if you can. K8's 64-bitness won't mean a damn thing to the consumer market within the lifetime of your new computer, but the low-latency of the integrated memory controller should make Athlon64 a very worthwhile contender for game-playing in particular. Meanwhile, Prescott will run much cooler than today's top-end P4s, which should come in handy if you're looking to overclock or just want a quiet PC running in spec

He likes to play ut , ut 2003 is going to have a 64 bit mode. I'm sure thats just the first of many games . Not only that but there should be a 64bit windows out soon. So really it be dumb not to get 64 bit since it can only help. Esp if your only looking at a 3 month wait or so.

A p4 is a nice buy . I just don't trust intels upgrade path right now.

 

[pascal]

You can save some serious money with the following config, and almost the same performance with games like UT2k3 and U2.
- AMD Athlon XP 2800+ (Barton Core) 333 FSB
- 2x512MB MUSHKIN PC2700 (6ns) OEM (BLUE LINE)
- ASUS A7N8X Deluxe
- Western Digital Raptor x 2
- ANTEC LIFE STYLE SERIES SONATA PIANO BLACK CASE w/ 380w power supply
- ATi Radeon 9700 128MB

Most Corsair are overclocked 6ns chips.
Overclock the multiplier if you want.
Glacialtech iglo 2500 pro will coll it well without too much noise.

 

[Blade]

Pascal: Aye, that's what I was saying about the CPU. There's always been a big price drop-off on every level when you're dealing with the top-level consumer CPU's. Get up high enough and you eventually start paying $100+ for an extra 10fps..

Here's Athlon XP's on Price Watch.. this is sad..

$450 - Athlon XP 3200
$439 - Athlon XP 3200 400mhz
$242 - Athlon XP 3000
$275 - Athlon XP 3000 400mhz
$164 - Athlon XP 2800
$163 - Athlon XP 2800 333mhz
$124 - Athlon XP 2700 333mhz
$105 - Athlon XP 2600
$91 - Athlon XP 2600 333mhz
$87 - Athlon XP 2500
$85 - Athlon XP 2500 333mhz

Literally a $200 drop-off from 3200+ to 3000+. It's mind boggling.

 

[Dave H]

He likes to play ut , ut 2003 is going to have a 64 bit mode. I'm sure thats just the first of many games .

There is absolutely no need for 64-bits in consumer apps for the next two or three years. The reason for the 64-bit UT is not the 64 bits, but the extra GPRs that come along with x86-64. According to Epic ("the way technology is meant to be hyped") it provides a hefty speedup.

What they're not emphasizing is that that's only on GCC/Linux. GCC is the world's most cross-platform compiler (hell, GCC is probably the world's most cross-platform piece of software, short of hello_world). It doesn't do platform-specific scheduling until the final pass, which is too late for most optimizations. The optimizations it makes before then generally strive to be as platform-neutral as possible, but they do tend to assume the target architecture resembles the vast majority of target architectures out there in having 32 GPRs. In other words, it's not surprising that GCC would gain more from the extra registers than would a compiler targeted specifically at x86.

Moreover, it's doubtful the x86-64/GCC/Linux combo is even as fast as the 32-bit Windows binary (presumably MS compilers). When (if) MS has good x86-64 support in its compiler, then we can see what sort of speedup the extra registers really bring. And then we can see how many ISVs are willing to spend the time making their software 64-bit clean. (Presumably not more than supported 3dNow!) And then we can talk.

Not only that but there should be a 64bit windows out soon.

So what? There's almost no benefit for consumer apps.

So really it be dumb not to get 64 bit since it can only help.

Technically that's not true: 64-bit ints can take a good 10% off the "size" of your caches. The extra registers should make x86-64 an overall win for essentially every app, assuming equal compiler support, and assuming it's worth the effort on the part of the developer, both dubious propositions.

Esp if your only looking at a 3 month wait or so.

A 3 month wait for what exactly? The ability to run crypto routines really fast?

A p4 is a nice buy . I just don't trust intels upgrade path right now.

IIRC, AMD and Intel are both looking to change sockets at about the same time. Frankly, I don't think many people plan to upgrade only their CPU these days. The pace of innovation in the chipset market is much greater than it used to be. In most cases, you wouldn't dream of buying a new processor to stick in a motherboard that's much over 18 months old, so who cares whether you have the option to or not?

Of course that's just me; if upgrade path is important to him, then it might be worth waiting around for the new sockets to come in early next year. Except that he wants to upgrade in time for HL2. Technically the Athlon64 will be released just in time, although who knows if he could get parts delivered and a system built in time for the release (if that's important to him), or if parts will be in his price range that close to launch.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Anything I need to know? I've been out of the loop re: PC hardware for a while now, so I wasn't really certain what I wanted. Was originally going to get a P4, but I think I'd rather have an AMD because of the price difference and also because I want Dolby Digital for my games. Speaking of which, what games support the nForce and how good well does it work?

What's a good heatsink/fan for that CPU? I'm not really trying to overclock to the max, but I wouldn't mind some free speed

Games don't really need to support the Nforce Chipset. It's just a chipset, and so doesn't need to be addressed directly, just as Intel or Via chipsets don't get "supported" directly by games.

Probably an important thing to note is that the Nforce XP drivers come with their own IDE drivers that treat ATAPI as SCSI in order to speed up disk access. Some people have had problems with this (for instance, Nero hates them) but it's easy enough to stick with the Microsoft drivers and notice very little difference. You also need to make sure you get the latest Silicon Image drivers if those Raptors are SATA drives and you are going to run them off the RAID interface.

As for heatsinks, I use a Thermalright SLK-800 with a temperature controlled Thermaltake Smart Fan. It's basically a huge chunk of copper. It's expensive but works well. Bear in mind that these Athlons can chuck out an awful lot of heat when they are running at full tilt. so make sure your case is well ventilated, and do go for a properly rated copper heatsink or straight to water cooling.

Watch out for the power rating on the motherboard fan headers. IIRC, they are about 4.5 watts, and many of the bigger fans can draw double that, so it is better to run those directly off a PSU loop.

Talking of PSUs, make sure your Antec is properly rated on the individual rails. An overall rating is misleading if the PSU cannot supply enough amps on the individual rails. Given how hungry the 9800s and Athlons are, along with two hard drive and everything else you might have in there, you might want to consider going up to the next model or two of PSU, towards the 430 or 470 watt range.

 

[horvendile]

Games don't really need to support the Nforce Chipset.

I think he meant games supporting Dolby Digital.

and also because I want Dolby Digital for my games. Speaking of which, what games support the nForce and how good well does it work?

 

[Ozymandis]

Games don't really need to support the Nforce Chipset. It's just a chipset, and so doesn't need to be addressed directly, just as Intel or Via chipsets don't get "supported" directly by games.

I meant, as horvendile correctly noted, games that support the nForce's DD5.1 audio encoding. I know that UT2k3 and U2 do, but are there any others?

As for heatsinks, I use a Thermalright SLK-800 with a temperature controlled Thermaltake Smart Fan. It's basically a huge chunk of copper. It's expensive but works well. Bear in mind that these Athlons can chuck out an awful lot of heat when they are running at full tilt. so make sure your case is well ventilated, and do go for a properly rated copper heatsink or straight to water cooling.

That's the same heatsink I was planing to get, as the 900 supposedly won't fit on to that motherboard without bending capacitors, which I don't really want to do. I want a quiet fan though. Not super-quiet, but not a screamer like the Antec fan on my current system. This thing is crazy loud

Watch out for the power rating on the motherboard fan headers. IIRC, they are about 4.5 watts, and many of the bigger fans can draw double that, so it is better to run those directly off a PSU loop.

Noted.

Talking of PSUs, make sure your Antec is properly rated on the individual rails. An overall rating is misleading if the PSU cannot supply enough amps on the individual rails. Given how hungry the 9800s and Athlons are, along with two hard drive and everything else you might have in there, you might want to consider going up to the next model or two of PSU, towards the 430 or 470 watt range.

I think that PSU should be fine. I'll check out some reviews to make sure, of course.

 

[zurich]

Ozy,

The nForce MCP-T just interepts DirectSound3D calls and translates them into discreet 5.1 channels, its pretty much the same way on the Xbox (though probably a little more finely tuned). So games don't have to 'support' anything, besides DirectSound3D which virtually every FPS in the world does.

I've even read of people getting DS3D plugins for WinAmp, and when they would listen to their MP3s the DD5.1 light would come up on the receiver.

 

[Ozymandis]

Ozy,

The nForce MCP-T just interepts DirectSound3D calls and translates them into discreet 5.1 channels, its pretty much the same way on the Xbox (though probably a little more finely tuned). So games don't have to 'support' anything, besides DirectSound3D which virtually every FPS in the world does.

I've even read of people getting DS3D plugins for WinAmp, and when they would listen to their MP3s the DD5.1 light would come up on the receiver.

Ah, that clears it up. Thanks zurich

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I meant, as horvendile correctly noted, games that support the nForce's DD5.1 audio encoding. I know that UT2k3 and U2 do, but are there any others?

Note that it's Dolby *encoding*. IIRC, the chipset does not do Dolby *decoding*. You still need to feed everything into a decoder if you want a full 5.1 as per the spec. I don't use it myself, so I'm just going by the memory of things I've read.

As for heatsinks, I use a Thermalright SLK-800 with a temperature controlled Thermaltake Smart Fan. It's basically a huge chunk of copper. It's expensive but works well. Bear in mind that these Athlons can chuck out an awful lot of heat when they are running at full tilt. so make sure your case is well ventilated, and do go for a properly rated copper heatsink or straight to water cooling.

That's the same heatsink I was planing to get, as the 900 supposedly won't fit on to that motherboard without bending capacitors, which I don't really want to do. I want a quiet fan though. Not super-quiet, but not a screamer like the Antec fan on my current system. This thing is crazy loud

Things to bear in mind: If you don't have a case with a sliding/dropout motherboard tray, you must install the heatsink before you install the motherboard - it's almost impossible to do inside most cases because of the space you need for the screwdriver and the closeness of the CPU socket to the top of the motherboard.

Make sure you take the time to find a screwdriver that fits the slot on the heatsink correctly, otherwise it is prone to slipping out and gouging your motherboard. It needs a lot of controlled force to fit it correctly. Some people like to use a credit card under the socket lugs to protect the motherboard while they install the heatsink, though there are some light plastic protectors underneath by default. Don't forget the thermal compound.

Fit the retaining springs to the heatsink before you install the SLK-800 - the capacitors near to the socket interfere with putting them in on the lowest holes.

As for fans, if you want a good general fan, the 80mm Thermaltake SmartFan 2 is good. Can be run of headers or PSU (draws too much power for the A7N8X-D motherboard headers), and controlled either with a thermister or a manual dial (which comes in the box). An alternative would probably be the YSTech TMDfan. It comes in a couple of speeds, and the lower speed is supposed to be not so noisy with a good performance and a different, more acceptable pitch than most fans. YMMV

I've also found that the YSTech low noise fans are very quiet, and much cheaper than the Papst fans. They are low speed, so only really good for multiple case chassis fans.

 

[jvd]

There is absolutely no need for 64-bits in consumer apps for the next two or three years. The reason for the 64-bit UT is not the 64 bits, but the extra GPRs that come along with x86-64. According to Epic ("the way technology is meant to be hyped") it provides a hefty speedup.

You sya it yourself. x86-64 provides a boost . At the end of the day more speed matters in games . So if the speed up is from being in 64bit or its from extra registor does it matter as long as its faster than running on a 32bit chip ?

I pointed out already that the athlon is a dead upgrade path. I don't see more than anotehr 1 or 2 speed increase to the current athlons if even. I see the p4 just as cloudy. Intel is planing on a new socket and we don't know when its gong to be released. We know when amd is going to release thier new one . That is all. If he can wait its best to wait. If he can't then he should buy now.

 

[Ozymandis]

Note that it's Dolby *encoding*. IIRC, the chipset does not do Dolby *decoding*. You still need to feed everything into a decoder if you want a full 5.1 as per the spec. I don't use it myself, so I'm just going by the memory of things I've read.

Most mobos seem to have analog 5.1 outputs as well, which don't need decoded. But this isn't a problem. I run my current sound through an Onkyo receiver using a coax cable, so it's basically the same setup physically.

Things to bear in mind: If you don't have a case with a sliding/dropout motherboard tray, you must install the heatsink before you install the motherboard - it's almost impossible to do inside most cases because of the space you need for the screwdriver and the closeness of the CPU socket to the top of the motherboard.

Make sure you take the time to find a screwdriver that fits the slot on the heatsink correctly, otherwise it is prone to slipping out and gouging your motherboard. It needs a lot of controlled force to fit it correctly. Some people like to use a credit card under the socket lugs to protect the motherboard while they install the heatsink, though there are some light plastic protectors underneath by default. Don't forget the thermal compound.

I'm not THAT much out of the loop

Fit the retaining springs to the heatsink before you install the SLK-800 - the capacitors near to the socket interfere with putting them in on the lowest holes.

Will do.

As for fans, if you want a good general fan, the 80mm Thermaltake SmartFan 2 is good. Can be run of headers or PSU (draws too much power for the A7N8X-D motherboard headers), and controlled either with a thermister or a manual dial (which comes in the box). An alternative would probably be the YSTech TMDfan. It comes in a couple of speeds, and the lower speed is supposed to be not so noisy with a good performance and a different, more acceptable pitch than most fans. YMMV

I think I'll try that fan then. Since it does have a manual dial, hopefully I can find a balance between cooling and noise. This Vantec I have now is so loud though that anything will be an improvement over it

 

[Dave H]

You sya it yourself. x86-64 provides a boost . At the end of the day more speed matters in games . So if the speed up is from being in 64bit or its from extra registor does it matter as long as its faster than running on a 32bit chip ?

Again, so far the speedup only exists for Linux users. Presumably an x86-64 Windows signals an x86-64 compiler from Microsoft (otherwise, what are they going to use to compile it?). Availability and performance of that compiler are still unknown, though.

The broader point is that, from a consumer POV, the only advantage of x86-64 for the forseeable future is that it enables a performance boost for recompiled apps. It has essentially no use (for the consumer market) as a feature in its own right. And we still don't know whether that performance boost will put it ahead of competing P4s or not. It's certainly in no way a "must have" feature, any more so than an extra few hundred MHz is a "must have" feature.

I pointed out already that the athlon is a dead upgrade path. I don't see more than anotehr 1 or 2 speed increase to the current athlons if even. I see the p4 just as cloudy. Intel is planing on a new socket and we don't know when its gong to be released. We know when amd is going to release thier new one . That is all. If he can wait its best to wait. If he can't then he should buy now.

There is also reason to believe that the socket for the first round of Athlon64s will be short lived. In particular, there are heavy rumors (dunno if confirmed) that after the .09u shrink (mid-'04), Athlon64s will move to a 128-bit wide memory controller (like current Opterons) and thus a new socket. Again, I think forward socket compatibility is no longer an issue for most people, but if you are concerned about it, things look bad on both the Intel and the AMD sides.

And probably will continue to. Put it this way--if market research indicated that people were still upgrading their CPUs, Intel would still sell "overdrive" chips.