Optical disc formats & next gen consoles.

[Mendel]

From old news bit from the days when hd-dvd was still not quite totally dead...

Founding members of the Blu-ray disc Association (BDA) – Sony Corp. and Royal Philips Electronics – demand $30 fee of every drive capable of reading Blu-ray.

First of all is that information still valid? It would cost as much as $30 per console to Microsoft & Nintendo to use blu-ray drives? No such wonder then that Ninty apparently opted to invent yeat another new disc media for Wii U if that is the case even if yet another proprietary format would obviously also be costly.

This could also be a key factor for the recent rumors about some kind of Microsoft-Sony co-operation for next gen. BR would make so much sense for Xbox Next that they can´t stop to at least consider it.

No, I don´t think they can go for download only. It´s not so much about internet connections not being able to handle it, I think it´s more about storeshelves full of games being kind of advertisement for the device. If your next to invisible in the stores, your console doesn´t exist to John and Jane Doe, I would argue.

Still though, where do you think this is going with regards to Xbox Next, Playstation 4, Wii U and the optical disc formats?

 

[RudeCurve]

There are a few alternatives to Blu-ray....such as HD DVD or those other multilayer drives based on blue laser.

 

[Squilliam]

Last time I checked it was $9.50 per player IIRC. Dunno where the latest relevant info is however.

However, this new company will only be a start as "other holders of essential patents for Blu-ray disc, DVD and CD patents [are] invited to join this licensing entity as a licensor and also as shareholder." The cost of jumping into Blu-ray can still be substantial, as the licensing company will charge $9.50 for every Blu-ray player, $14.50 for a recorder, $0.11 for a read-only disc, $0.12 for a recordable disc and $0.15 for a rewriteable disc. And still, the license fees are expected to be "40% lower than the current cumulative royalty rates for individual Blu-ray disc, DVD and CD format licenses."

http://www.tgdaily.com/games/41568-blu-ray-gets-simplified-licensing

 

[manux]

I doubt nintendos optical media is radically different from blu-ray. My guess is Nintendo just doesn't certify the drive and doesn't provide playback software for movies and hence lowers the licencing costs. Maybe there is some nintendo specific modifications to disc structure due to copy protection but that would be a minor thing.

 

[Mendel]

Maybe they'll have the disc rotate the wrong way again

I don´t know, it just feels so wrong... maybe its just that I got used to the cd generation of consoles all happily playing music cds and dvd generation of consoles playing movies (except the gamecube (double except the matsushita panasonic q thingie))

I think I might as well have made a "will Xbox Next play BR movies" poll and have been done with it.

 

[manux]

Maybe they'll have the disc rotate the wrong way again

I don´t know, it just feels so wrong... maybe its just that I got used to the cd generation of consoles all happily playing music cds and dvd generation of consoles playing movies (except the gamecube (double except the matsushita panasonic q thingie))

I think I might as well have made a "will Xbox Next play BR movies" poll and have been done with it.

I think nintendo doesn't care for dvd or blu-ray movies.

http://www.mygamingstation.com/2011/06/wii-u-passing-on-dvd-blu-ray/

“Wii U does not have DVD or Blu-ray playback capabilities,” Iwata said. “The reason for that is that we feel that enough people already have devices that are capable of playing DVDs and Blu-ray, such that it didn’t warrant the cost involved to build that functionality into the Wii U console because of the patents related to those technologies.”

I think it's just the software and certification... The physical media most likely is close to blu-ray so nintendo doesn't need to build their own manufacturing plants for pressing the discs. If nintendo really goes for own manufacturing plants and fully proprietary disc media and fully proprietary optics for reading the disc it is just crazy. Most likely at that point it would have been smarter to go with read only flash based game media.

Also 25GB size for ninty "properietary media" points towards variant of single layer blu-ray.

 

[-tkf-]

Maybe Nintendo will create the added functionality as a DLC for XX dollars.

 

[V3]

Well do next gen games need more than 50 GB ?

I think only Sony might offer something bigger than the standard dual layer bluray disc but even that is doubtful.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Maybe Nintendo will create the added functionality as a DLC for XX dollars.

They didn't for Wii, did they?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I think nintendo doesn't care for dvd or blu-ray movies.

http://www.mygamingstation.com/2011/06/wii-u-passing-on-dvd-blu-ray/

That makes sense. I've only ever played 2 DVD's on my PS2. And I've never played a DVD on my X360. I don't see my movie viewing habits to changes whether they included the ability or not. Also didn't appear to hamper Wii adoption in any way, shape or form. So no reason to pay extra just for another checkbox on the box.

Regards,
SB

 

[jonabbey]

That makes sense. I've only ever played 2 DVD's on my PS2. And I've never played a DVD on my X360. I don't see my movie viewing habits to changes whether they included the ability or not. Also didn't appear to hamper Wii adoption in any way, shape or form. So no reason to pay extra just for another checkbox on the box.

Regards,
SB

A lot of PS3 owners do play Blu-Ray discs on their systems, however. I know I've played over a hundred.

I suppose it's a matter of how new the movie viewing technology is at the time the game console launches. The number of people who used the PS2 for watching DVD was not trivial, as I recall, for instance.

 

[jonabbey]

Well do next gen games need more than 50 GB ?

I think only Sony might offer something bigger than the standard dual layer bluray disc but even that is doubtful.

PS4 should certainly have a much faster optical drive than the 2x BD drive PS3 has.

I imagine that's more important than going to more layers, though Sony has certainly demonstrated the ability to do that as well.

 

[boommoob1]

Well do next gen games need more than 50 GB ?

I think only Sony might offer something bigger than the standard dual layer bluray disc but even that is doubtful.

It depends what there timelines are for 4K/3D and whatever else is being cooked up.

 

[Carl B]

I don't see this next gen moving beyond 1080p, for certain - if anything would be the driver, it would be active and widespread 3D adoption. That being said, I don't think that we'll have a medium other than Blu-ray, or some other blue or red laser derivatives for any of the others should they decide not to license.

 

[hoho]

PS4 should certainly have a much faster optical drive than the 2x BD drive PS3 has.

Can you put that to numbers? From what I understand you can't really make a spinning drive that much faster than they already are, not to mention their huge seek times that you pretty much can't improve at all.

 

[manux]

Can you put that to numbers? From what I understand you can't really make a spinning drive that much faster than they already are, not to mention their huge seek times that you pretty much can't improve at all.

There are 8x+ blu-ray drives on market at this time, ps3 has 2x drive. maybe 6x drive is still something that would be workable inside a console.

As for seek times, blu-ray isn't too bad compared to other optical medias. Read this thread to understand better: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157&highlight=blu-ray+seek+time

I'm expecting that next gen machines will have some sort of media that can be used to cache games. Be it 2.5" HDD or integrated flash memory or some sort of sd card. I doubt sony or microsoft will go with a console that cannot properly consume digital downloads, rentals and so on. Having a (random number) 32GB flash memory would probably be better than the current 2.5" hdd's inside consoles(for cheap base model).

edit. I would expect baseline of 4x drive and decently fast flash memory for cache. Caching done in same style as in xbox(no mandatory install). Probably there would also be highend end sku's with 2.5" hdd and possibility for full install. Even for HDD installs I would expect the flash to be used as cache to give insanely good seek time to seek sensitive data.

 

[manux]

I don't see this next gen moving beyond 1080p, for certain - if anything would be the driver, it would be active and widespread 3D adoption. That being said, I don't think that we'll have a medium other than Blu-ray, or some other blue or red laser derivatives for any of the others should they decide not to license.

I agree. Most games probably are under 25GB and perhaps there are few that require whole 50GB disc. Most likely we will see smallish binaries to DD only games or sacrifice in quality in DD versus physical media.

Current 3d movies though are pushing the 50GB discs. If 48fps 3d(or some such) becomes a hit that would cause a need for 100GB media for home distribution. PS4 might be perfect vehicle for driving mass adoption. It also might be 48fps stays on movie theaters and blu-rays are stuck in 24fps.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/james-cameron-48-fps/

 

[hoho]

There are 8x+ blu-ray drives on market at this time, ps3 has 2x drive. maybe 6x drive is still something that would be workable inside a console.

So basically best-case scenario would be about 4x faster than current. I wouldn't call that much of an improvement considering how it's expected that RAM sizes will be much more than 4x bigger.

As for seek times, blu-ray isn't too bad compared to other optical medias

Yeah, when you compare slow to slower then it won't look too bad

I'm expecting that next gen machines will have some sort of media that can be used to cache games

I'm fairly certain all consoles will have a built-in HDD but I wouldn't count on having some solid-state memory in addition to that.

 

[Rangers]

I'm fairly certain all consoles will have a built-in HDD

Hopefully not Anyway we already know Wii U does not have a HDD.

 

[manux]

So basically best-case scenario would be about 4x faster than current. I wouldn't call that much of an improvement considering how it's expected that RAM sizes will be much more than 4x bigger.
Yeah, when you compare slow to slower then it won't look too bad
I'm fairly certain all consoles will have a built-in HDD but I wouldn't count on having some solid-state memory in addition to that.

I edited my older post to contain my prediction. I think flash is more likely than mandatory hdd. HDD has higher minimum cost and worse performance compared to flash. Even if that flash memory was more expensive the first year cost of flash memory will go down when manufacturing processes get better. Flash memory would give much better performance than 2.5" hdd (especially seeking). None performance/seek sensitive data can be streamed from optical media.

I don't believe game binary sizes will grow linearly tied to available memory. There is another thread where the binary size/memory size/flash/hdd/optical was debated in a lot of detail and what can be done to keep binary size small yet still fill larger main memory.