Ops,"I" did it again. Why does Futuremark still ke

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by engall, Aug 9, 2003.

  1. micron

    micron Diamond Viper 550
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    I'm saying that it sux to have a new videocard and not be allowed to submit scores, after you've paid for the pro version.
    It doesnt really matter now because FM fixed the problem :wink:
    The scores are being submitted, and everyones happy :D
     
  2. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Yeah, but I was talking about the bit in their policy where they state they only accept results from officially released WHQL drivers. ;)
     
  3. micron

    micron Diamond Viper 550
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    I know you were, and I understand FM's policy.
    The pro version end-users were still complaining constantly, and it was something that FM had to deal with. And they did.
     
  4. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    I don't follow FM's boards, how did they deal with it?
     
  5. micron

    micron Diamond Viper 550
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    They got back in bed with Nvidia.
     
  6. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Ok, I knew that. (I guess I HAVE been following it a bit better than I thought. ;) )
     
  7. WaltC

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    Actually, in thinking a bit more about the conflict of interest inherent in the business model, it strkes me there are actually two major conflicts of interest there.

    The first is that fact that while the assumption of the IHV partners is that they are paying for software which can be used as a marketing tool to portray their products in a positive light, the public is thinking they are using software which provides a level playing field for an ojective evaluation of the features supported by differing 3d hardware in a comparative context.

    The second is that you have competing IHVs paying dues, but expecting entirely different things from the software. For instance, nVidia pays x dollars and tells FM to "go this way" with its software, and ATi pays FM x dollars and tells them to "go that way" with its software. So what does FM do? If they go "this way" they risk alienating ATi and having ATi quit the program, but if they go "that way" with it they risk alienating nVidia and having nVidia quit the program (which has already happened.) Last, if they take the middle route and split the difference between them then they risk alienating both of the IHVs and possibly having both of them quit the program.

    Pre-R300 I'm guessing that conflict of interest between IHVs was not that much of a problem since nVidia had a pretty good lead at the high end. But now that ATi is emerging as dominant, I can see several bones of contention developing along the lines that prompted nVidia to quit last year. As the competition intensifies between the IHVs my thought is that the situation isn't likely to subside, but rather to grow more acrid.

    The funny thing about companies is when they shell out money for programs like this they naturally expect some tangible benefit in the way of goods and services in return. If they don't perceive they are getting such benefits they lose the motivation to pay for the privilege of participating. Looks like a thorny problem for FM going forward.

    I think the best solution therefore would be for them to change their business model and deal with the IHVs on a voluntary basis through NDAs and drop them from the partnership dues-paying rolls. They could maintain their partnership with oems like Dell (and other entities) for the purposes of sales and distribution, and concentrate on creating benchmark software for sale to the general public, primarily to serve the general public. If an IHV wanted to see its hardware represented in a forthcoming FM benchmark it could supply whatever help it wanted to FM, sans payment, and FM could derive its income from its non-IHV partners and sales of its software to the general public. That way FM could eliminate these potentially serious conflicts of interest entirely. If they don't do something like this I can see these conflicts eventually tearing the company apart. Just my opinion, of course.
     
  8. Mark

    Mark aka Ratchet
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    only Walt could take a one word post and post and reply with an editorial (ok, maybe demalion too) ;)
     
  9. StealthHawk

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    The slides say no such thing. One of the guidelines is that an optimization must accelerate more than a benchmark. I can only assume that this applies more to games with a benchmark mode, rather than saying that no optimizations are allowed in synthetic benchmark programs period.

    45.23 was supposed to be the first driver to implement these guidelines...I for one have not heard of any changes.
     
  10. Malo

    Malo Yak Mechanicum
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    I see what you mean yes. But it's still a little ambiguous.

    If Nv replaced a shader in 3DMark03 and used the same shader replacement in a game, does that constitute as a valid optimisation?
     
  11. WaltC

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    The way I interpret that is to mean that they'll no longer be making performance-increase claims for driver sets which do nothing except to "accelerate" benchmarks. Or, looking at it another way, they are saying they won't be optimizing strictly for benchmarks anymore, such as 3dMk, for instance.

    Obviously this latest Detonator set has flunked the new guidelines test, so I await with relish the moment when nVidia actually does what it says it is going to do...;)
     
  12. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    I'm waiting with a healthy dose of skepticism & suspicion.... :?
     
  13. Quitch

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    I hear the funeral march playing in the distance...
     
  14. tEd

    tEd Casual Member
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  15. FUDie

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    Patric Ojala in this post.

    -FUDie
     
  16. WaltC

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    Heh...;) Further discussion:

    nVidia: We want to use our own shader code.

    FM: Hmmmm....OK, uh, how to say this delicately...? Ummm....we haven't received your sign-up fee as of today....it's 3 p.m., our time....

    (Two hours later)

    nVidia: OK, did you get the PayPal receipt?

    FM: Yes. In the bank.

    nVidia: So?

    FM: After lengthy discussions we've determined that yes, under some circumstances, it will be OK for you to use your own shader code--yes, certainly.

    nVidia: For Pete's sake, what circumstances?

    FM: Well....ummm....before we divulge that, there's the little matter of a slight...shall we say...shortfall?...in your initial deposit of trust with us...

    nVidia: I don't believe this...

    FM: Yes, well...Believe it, believe me...

    nVidia: *sigh* Same PayPal account...?

    FM: Well, you see we have a delicate matter of taxation in our country to consider and the additional....uh, contribution...cannot go through PayPal. I want you to call Pytor--his first name will be sufficient--at 555-1212, and you are to say, "The rose is red today," and he will answer, "My mother lives in Cambodia," in reply. If the proper phrase is not returned immediately *hang up the phone and get out of there.* Otherwise, Pytor will call later with instructions on what you must do. I would advise waiting by your telephone until Pytor rings you up...Once "the package" has been received, then you will receive clear instructions from me on what to do with your shader code....And, trust me, if Pytor is thwarted in any way I will only tell you where you can stuff your shader code, instead. I hope we understand each other...

    nVidia: We get the picture, all right!

    FM: I'm gratified. Nice doing uh, the business with you!
     
  17. micron

    micron Diamond Viper 550
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    Thats quite a picture you've painted there Walt....
     
  18. Quitch

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  19. just me

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    Ditto, ditto, ditto Walt! 8) Nice to see I'm not alone in 'seeing it' the same way. FM can't have it both ways > either it shipped under false pretenses or it is a valid bench & doesn't need changing. Seems FM is admitting it shipped under false marketing pretenses & is not what they represented it as originally. :wink:

    I'm also aghast at the claim of 'we didn't know'. My gawd they're in the business to know & if they don't > then they shouldn't release a product for sale w/the claims they do. :!:

    .02,
     
  20. Hellbinder

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    You know the problem here? The problem is that Nvidia is going to get various developers to write specific code to support their short commings. Id like to know when having the cash and influence to cover up shortcommings suddenly Transformed into what we all want to accept as the Golden Standard?? Also being included in so called *industry standard benchmarks*??

    This is just Ridiculous. Because the *kinds* of optimizations that ATi made, and would make are not the same endless ream of *CHEATING* BS that Nvidia is going to pull. FX12 is *NOT* part of the DX9 spec. Which is what they are going to do. Among other Questionable practices. All,, I repeat *ALL* in an effort to give them the best 3dmark03 score. So they can have the bragging rights and help line their cofferes. Does it matter that they get it Honestly?? Hell no. Becuase now everyone is Cow-Towing to them Handing them the *Undeserved* Crown on a Golden Platter. In a few months when the PCmags of the World crown Nvidia as the Performance Champion, and the "Card to own" based on 3dmark03 alone (becuase Nvidia endorses it now).. Not one comment will be uttered about *How* they suddenly came out so far on top.

    Honestly, I hope that ATi optomizes the **** out of 3dmark03 now. I mean to Ridiculous levels. And overrides any user changes that can be made. Or, Lets Put in a Driver Setting called *Runny soup* that can be used for *all games* that way it passes as a legit *optimization*. I say, Futuremark wants to play the Nvidia Game Fine. Then lets Turn ATi's Rendering of 3dmark03 into a bowl of Runny Soup ;)

    (I am a little Irritated right now.. so please bear that in mind)
     
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