OMG HARDOCP REVIEW OF UT2003 AND FILTERING

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by bloodbob, Jul 21, 2003.

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  1. Atomahawk

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    Don't dodge the question with HEHE! Were in that thread do's Kyle or [H] explicitly answer the question in regards to Nvidia’s cheating and they felt it was wrong?

    quote:

    Originally posted by creedAMD
    What did they admit screwing up?

    Kyles response. Did you not read the slides? Is it not obvious to you? Please go back and read the problem statement and solution slides again.

    He may put words in Nvidia’s mouth but doesn’t admit [H] felt it was wrong.

    And you wont find any admittance to the fact there or any where because that’s not how Kyle feels about it, and it’s that simple. Either you offer proof or admit you have none.
     
  2. Blackwind

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    Riggggghhht.
     
  3. FUDie

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    Huh?
     
  4. kemosabe

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    Indeed. Seems to me this is becoming a dead-end thread where we could spend hours dredging up old posts only to be told that "What Kyle said or didn't say was not necessarily what he thought. You are not in possession of the facts."

    I elect to respectfully disagree with the position of our friend Blackwind until such time as he presents the type of clearcut evidence that he claims resides in one or several of those [H] threads.

    Bonne chance, kemosabe! :lol:
     
  5. Althornin

    Althornin Senior Lurker
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    Blackwind, why can you not comprehend the nature of arguing your position?

    To use an analogy, i'd like you prove that god doesnt exist! Oh wait, its IMPOSSIBLE. Just as it is impossible for anyone here to prove to that Kyle DIDNT say something without simply quoting everything he has ever said - which, by linking to the [H], they have effectively done...

    You, OTOH, have the capability to easily disprove us. All you must do is provide a SINGLE link showing that he has said something. So please, cut tot he chase here, ok?


    I'd also like to respond to your assasination attmept on me 4 pages ago:
    You didnt state i was a fanperson: You sure implied it, by stating:
    Now, this implies that i care more about which card was favored in the conclusion than i do about the methods. That makes me a fanperson - which i am not.
    On your "agreement and disagreement": You stated that apples to apples was difficult but possible:
    problem is, it really is impossible...That was my point.
    A further response to your "lose emotions" strawman attack is not nessesary.

    But, i would like to remind you that simply because you do not think that what the [H] has done is dishonest, doesnt make it honest.
    I'd like to see a rational argument from you, that doesnt skip over everything as you are prone to do (i cite the last 5 pages) that explains how realizing that you are doing a flawed comparison (kyle had the info two months ago, and he was the editor for the review) and not mentioning it is anything but intellectually dishonest.
     
  6. Blackwind

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    DOH. Sorry. I'm in IM with my team and in a conference call reviewing some items. I accidently copied my response from IM on the board and posted. DUH. Sorry
     
  7. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    I agree with Atomahawk on this one and don't understand the basis for your sarcastic reply. :(
     
  8. Blackwind

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    Seeing I have to get going to a dinner appointment I will leave it with this.

    A) I do not find anything dishonest about what [H]ard has done in regards to UT2k3 or their efforts.
    B) I do not believe ANY vendor has the right to adjust what is a setting on my video card.
    C) I believe can accomplish a FAIR review of present offerings from both ATI and Nvidia, though it is very difficult.
    D) I believe after the effort of doing such a review not everyone will be happy with your outcome of methods.

    This does not make one dishonest or deceitful.
     
  9. Atomahawk

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    I agree, at this point in time to continue would be pointless until Blackwind actually has something of value to include. At least Brent wouldn't allow Blackwind to put words in his mouth.

    Blackwind wrote:
    Heathen wrote:
    Links?

    If they've actually come out and said "It's wrong" that's fine but I'm still curious why this was never mentioned on the main part of the site. All they (Kyle to be precise) seemed to do was launch unwarranted attacks against Extremetech and Beyond 3D.

    Personally I think 3dMark (all variants) is good for one thing, showing off my graphics card.

    Ok we can agree on UT2K3, still curious why Kyle never mentioned it earlier though.


    I have a better suggestion. How about straight from one of the "horses mouths?" Ask Brent. The reason given for not posting on the front page is and I am paraphrasing at this point due to time contraints, "we don't want to be a part of the fiasco."


    huh

    i never said that
    _________________
    Regards,
    Brent
     
  10. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    A) If all the evidence presented here can't convince you, I don't think it's worth it to try and change your mind. (However, you are wrong. :) )
    B) Agreed
    C) Who do you believe can accomplish such a FAIR review, or did you mean in general?
    D) The point of a review isn't to make people happy, it's to accurately and fairly analyze/compare a product.
     
  11. WaltC

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    As an aside, have you ever noticed how he says he's "not talked with nVidia" when it's convenient and how he says things like "I talked to them two months ago in a meeting about this very thing..." when it's also convenient to name drop? Heh...I daresay in the last invention of this kind I suppose he didn't realize that admitting prior knowledge of nVidia's UT2K3 partial trilinear mode substitution for full trilinear made it appear that he was a willing co-conspirator. Funny, too, how everyone else seems to have been told nVidia would *not* be using a performance-mode trilinear any longer and that the only reason it had ever been used in the first place was for debugging purposes. *chuckle* Man, I can't remember a company ever admitting to so many "bugs" in its drivers before! Seems to be the stock response: "Tell 'em it's a bug." Ah, such confidence that instills...;) "We aren't dishonest--heavens, no! We just make the buggiest drivers in 3D-card history--that's what it is!" Heh-Heh..."bugs" which just so happen to not be visible unless the 3DMk03 camera goes off track, and "bugs" which magically increase the speed at which the benchmark runs by ~30%...;)
     
  12. Brent

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    E) I aint goin anywhere :D

    i still read this forum among many other, i happen to like all the knowledge that can be learned from here, I still think this site is valuable for the community and in getting 'beyond3d' :p

    there are a lot of smart people here
     
  13. Atomahawk

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    You make it sound like agreeing with me is a bad thing! LOL :lol:
     
  14. Forbidden Donut

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    I'm not entirely sure what the implication here is, but I have been reading [H] for about 5 or 6 years now. I've only been registered on the forums for 2 years, and I've only made 120+ posts, but that doesn't mean I don't read. I made plenty of posts over there (in fact, I would guesstimate a majority of the 120+) concerning the 3dmark issues and the ut2k3 issues. I stated clearly that I didn't agree with sweeping it under the rug. I even exchanged a couple emails with Kyle concerning some of the more recent developments, and while I still don't agree with sweeping issues under the rug, I can accept the fact that [H] does things differently than I would in their place. That's their prerogative. That also doesn't mean I have to approve of it.

    As a side-note, Kyle was very cordial in our email correspondence.

    My post count doesn't mean anything in terms of how well informed I am. I don't usually feel the need to post a million times about something. I don't like debating things over the internet. It's not my style. Sometimes, like this time, I'm compelled to do so
     
  15. Althornin

    Althornin Senior Lurker
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    In answer to (A) - nice way to dodge the bullet. Stateing it does not a case make. However, i've lined up MY case below. Feel free to refute it...
    In answer to (B) mostly agree, however i do think that turning off features that will cause crashes/glitches is fine, IF the user is notified
    (C) Agreed, but its not true apples to apples, ever. But its intellectually dishonest to not be as close as possible...
    (D) Probably not. But the point of reviews isnt to "please" people, its to educate them.

    When you get back, i'm looking forward to your response to the info i just dug up.

    Here it is:
    http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDQ0LDI=
    You will note that the above is from an earlier review at [H], in which they decide the only "fair" "apples to apples" comparison is nVidia's Quality to ATI's Quality.

    Now, i bring exibit two:
    http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7025&start=20
    Oops.
    How is it not intellectually dishonest to agree that balanced is not apples to apples, and then later use what is effectively balanced mode and call it a fair comparison???
     
  16. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    I didn't mean to imply that at all, I think you're absolutely correct and was just agreeing with you.

    Sorry if I implied otherwise, I blame it on me new commitment to be a bit more subdued here... ;)
     
  17. mondoterrifico

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    Whew

    Aside from the comedic value of Blackwind's posts this thread is way to long for such a cut and dry issue.

    1)Nvidia are "optimizing" for a specific benchmark.
    2)Some lame reviewers haven't the "tools" to be objective.
    3)Nvidia said they weren't gonna do 1) any more but did.
    4)Some lame reviewer said they were the Benchmark Slayer and talked of apples alot and how they would only compare apples or some such thingy.
    5)Some lame reviewer forgot that he was the Benchmark Slayer and all about the apples.
    6)Much banning occured for suggesting that apples be used.
    7)Clearly a more suitable fruit needs to be chosen next time to avoid sticky situations such as the need for objectivity and thruthfullness.
     
  18. Blackwind

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    Thank God.

    On another note, I'll cease to even attempt to apply facts to an otherwise purely speculative and very much unsopported conversation here. :D Like you, I'll keep readin and learning what I can where I can.

    I'm home. I'm dressed. I'm off to dinner.
     
  19. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    I hope you enjoy your dinner. When you come back could you please just address the issues asked of you rather than dance around the question?
     
  20. Atomahawk

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    LOL, why change, your an emotional type, let it flow, LOL,
    BTW, I was only kidding; I read enough of your post's to know that. Your apology is not accepted, because you had no reason to give one.
    :D
     
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