nVidia's GPP program is just a legally enforced GITG from hell?

[Malo]

I don't believe it was stated that discounts or allocations were part of the program, just that it was hinted at under the table. I don't visit that site ever but from your quote they're not denying anything that Kyle is stating is part of the program? I don't know what an MDF is though.

 

[digitalwanderer]

So much for the grand conspiracy spread by AMD and picked up Kyle (who got played).

This whole thing seems more like Charlie's style from Semi-In-Accurate.

Wait, nVidia denies it so it's all over? Just like that?

 

[bgroovy]

I have refused to buy Nvidia GPUs for a long time because of their many unethical, anticonsumer and anticompetitive activities. This would not shock me at all.

 

[CSI PC]

AGAIN with the whataboutism? Jesus, will you stop beating this dead horse already.

You want to discuss AMD-Sapphire, go make a thread about that and present your facts there. It's irrelevant for this discussion - and not even comparable in the first place as AMD isn't denying other brands support, or making decisions on how they may use their own trademarks.


Nobody is saying that! Literally, NOBODY IS SAYING THEY CAN'T SELL AMD BOARDS. Jesus. Stop with the strawman nonsense!

And the obtusive bit was for you refusing to acknowledge the AMD-Sapphire deal isn't comparable in scope and reach to this GPP thing.


Oh but it would. Hardware design and branding go hand in hand. The premium PCBs, coolers get the ROG (or equivalent for other vendors) branding. Deny AMD that, and the geekazoids who get turned on by blingy hardware (myself included) will not be attracted by inferior AMD offerings. They're not going to make two separate gaming brands, one for NV and one for AMD, that'd cost money and resources which can't be justified for a minor market player - plus it's redundant, plus "consumer confusion" etc. Also, again, apologism much?

If NV believed it would not have a major impact, why do you think they'd bother to cook up a contract like this? Of course they know it will have a sizeable impact; whatever you want to call NV, they're not fools.

Because some just like with the Sakura news blow this out of proportion without having all the facts or critically not looking at it in the broader context/perspective, and again some are doing it in this very thread.

Look back and I SAID "ah but some will say this is larger" and explained why it does not matter, please consider your accusation in last post is wrong.
Again you do not get the Sapphire engagement; they GET MORE SUPPORT THAN OTHER AIB PARTNERS, how the F""" do you think they are the only board partner to make it to embedded partner and not just that but also Elite and involved in deals that involve 3rd parties with embedded solutions, along with business practice that other AIBs do not have as well (explained those earlier).

NOWHERE does it say Nvidia is denying support-engagement just that there could be 2 tiers (this is what we have with Sapphire as I showed a few times now), look back and anyway lets see how this pans out.
As I said, this is expanding upon the Sapphire engagement AMD has but on a much larger scale, the NEGATIVE is the impact it has AIB partners as the only known fact for now until we have further information on the freaking Program beyond some basics given by Kyle.

I am dropping this like I had to with regards to Sakura, but yeah lets see if this potential over-reaction in this thread from several was worth it.

 

[Grall]

Wait, nVidia denies it so it's all over? Just like that?

The devil will be in the details. If NV denies it prioritizes allocation or support by aligning a gaming brand with NV, are there still other advantages given to those who align their gaming brand with NV?

It's truly funny when people accuse NVIDIA of anti consumer practices, when AMD has completely abandoned their consumers

Err, citations needed?

AMD released a driver just the other day with new gaming optimizations/bug fixes. I don't see how your claim meshes cleanly with reality...

 

[CSI PC]

Oh but it would. Hardware design and branding go hand in hand. The premium PCBs, coolers get the ROG (or equivalent for other vendors) branding. Deny AMD that, and the geekazoids who get turned on by blingy hardware (myself included) will not be attracted by inferior AMD offerings. They're not going to make two separate gaming brands, one for NV and one for AMD, that'd cost money and resources which can't be justified for a minor market player - plus it's redundant, plus "consumer confusion" etc. Also, again, apologism much?

If NV believed it would not have a major impact, why do you think they'd bother to cook up a contract like this? Of course they know it will have a sizeable impact; whatever you want to call NV, they're not fools.

Last post as needed.
So now you are saying the Program will stop the same GPU coolers and PCB sharing (not much between AMD and Nvidia on that front anyway if at all).
The only information we have on this Program is about broader marketing-branding-product positioning, like I said further information is required but I really cannot see it blocking hardware components.
The cooling aspect is tied to other model details such as with Asus it is STRIX/DUAL/POSIEDEN/etc, same goes for other companies like MSI with their Twin-Frzr (which is part of the branding that helps to sell MSI).

If Nvidia wanted major impact as you suggest against AMD they would also had tried to block AMD CPUs and that would hurt; eventually that would had been seen as illegal and overturned by courts but would have the effect it needed now.
In Kyles ROG example it would only affect GPUs.
The reason why this Program exists was given by Kyle in his article, yes it may have some impact on AMD but the real negative is the overhead and burden it creates on AIB partners/OEMs who feel like they must sign up or miss out; maybe they would be happy if Nvidia just selected several of the partners and gave them a premier tier but I doubt it.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

So much for the grand conspiracy spread by AMD and picked up Kyle (who got played).

This whole thing seems more like Charlie's style from Semi-In-Accurate.

Yeah when the police questions a crime suspect and he claims innocence we should totally assume he's telling the truth.

Just like Intel claimed their "special rebates" weren't happening 12 years ago.

 

[Grall]

Yeah when the police questions a crime suspect and he claims innocence we should totally assume he's telling the truth.

Right now there seems to be a "he said she said" situation brewing - we'll probably have to wait a bit to see where all the bricks fall.

Kyle said he saw documents, supporting his claims. I've never been a Kyle fan, he's a dickish texan with a big mouth, but I don't think there's ever been a case of him straight up lying. I can't remember that ever happening. So if NV denies Kyle's claims, what exactly were those documents?

We shall see what comes out of this in the end, I'm sure it's not over yet. Maybe photos were taken of said documents, who knows.

 

[Anarchist4000]

The reason why this Program exists was given by Kyle in his article, yes it may have some impact on AMD but the real negative is the overhead and burden it creates on AIB partners/OEMs who feel like they must sign up or miss out; maybe they would be happy if Nvidia just selected several of the partners and gave them a premier tier but I doubt it.

Not just that they must sign up, but they have to eat the costs of marketing an entirely separate brand. Then the question of if it prohibits multiple "gaming" brands. It won't allow the partners to put any products into the line that may contain AMD's graphics tech, despite not being in direct competition. The gaming brands have all sorts of peripherals, so there could exist video editing for streamers, etc.

APUs with the possibility of integrated plus discrete graphics will prove interesting. GPU pass-through with VMs could be an extremely viable platform in the future and this would seemingly prohibit that. Nvidia won't be able to create a comparable solution on par with KabyG/RyzenG from a power standpoint because of the lack of integration. The KabyG design with integrated (power efficient) plus discrete (performance) would be a useful model going forward. It also works with external GPUs, but again the GPP would seemingly prohibit those designs under the same brand.

 

[Kaotik]

So much for the grand conspiracy spread by AMD and picked up Kyle (who got played).

This whole thing seems more like Charlie's style from Semi-In-Accurate.

Really? How many times have companies accused of illegal practices admitted anything before being penalized in court? I'm pretty sure I distinctively remember Intel denying any illegal activities back in the day too, and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Malo]

Right now there seems to be a "he said she said" situation brewing - we'll probably have to wait a bit to see where all the bricks fall.

As far as I can tell, Nvidia haven't denied anything Kyle stated is actually part of the GPP, just the other stuff he was alluding to being under the table.

 

[BRiT]

Come on folks. There is no need to get personal just because a company's alleged actions are under scrutiny. You're worse than the console warriors! You should be better than this. Keep it civil.

 

[Deleted member 2197]

At this point all alleged actions are from the rumor mill! Wait until some facts surface that substantiate the rumors one way or the other...

 

[Anarchist4000]

Nope, the RTG revenue has been largely from mining sales.

That's not what AMD's CEO said, but perhaps you know more?

More like in a dreaming pace, NVIDIA holds a terrifying 90% presence in dGPUs for gamers right now. Good luck changing that anytime soon. AMD can't even design a proper gaming chip or get out of the sinking hole that is GCN. They don't even have anything new for 2018 and the good first half of 2019.

What dream? JPR recently released the numbers. Discrete GPU sales continue their decline, despite the mining boom and the Intel/AMD offerings are really going to hammer that point home in the high volume segments. No reason to abandon GCN when it's becoming so widely adopted and Nvidia is still working in a counter for async. Holding back DX12/Vulkan in the process. AMD doesn't need anything new if they start scaling chips, which Vega should be able to do. You might as well be claiming Nvidia controls 100% of the dGPU market that uses Nvidia chips. Really narrow down that focus to spin the numbers!

That's crap and you know it. AMD just mixes professional CPU sales with GPU sales. Those sales are mostly Zen. Vega is only sold for miners right now.

It's what the official numbers and company officials said with the last earnings report. As it's legally binding, I'm inclined to believe it. Mining aside, the chips are being adopted and sold as fast as AMD can produce them. The amended wafer agreement should help with Fab space, but likely not memory. Might be interesting if we see relative memory capacity cut in half with upcoming models.

What does APUs have to do with dGPUs? These two couldn't even dethrone a lowly castrated 1030 in any convincing manner.

Why limit comparisons to dGPU and not the broader graphics market? If dGPU is completely phased out, are numbers really relevant? Those options are dethroning the 1030 and haven't scaled to 1060 range yet. Intel took the entire bottom out of the dGPU market and performance wasn't the deciding factor. Performance doesn't matter if OEMs start replacing discrete with cheaper, smaller integrated solutions with comparable performance.

This program is designed to cut losses and Nvidia is likely looking well ahead of what's public. I outlined this path years ago and none of this is really a surprise. Nvidia wouldn't risk pissing off partners if they could avoid it, although they do seem to do it regularly.

 

[digitalwanderer]

This whole thing seems more like Charlie's style from Semi-In-Accurate.

I resent that, I happen to like/respect Charlie Demerjian and think he does some fantastic journalism. Not arguing, just disagreeing on a point.


Also I have discovered I'm in terrible forum shape! Following the thread at [H] about this has been a lot harder than it used to be for me. :/

Someone raised an excellent point though, it isn't the first time nVidia has tried this. Anyone remember the OriginPC/nVidia "Tier 0" scandal from about 5-6 years ago?

Sources high up at Nvidia say that the program that bribed Origin PC to drop AMD products and publicly badmouth the company, its products, and anything related is called “Tier 0”. The plan was hatched by Nvidia sales and it has a few bits to it. Tier 0 partners have to drop competitive products, AMD in this case, publicly badmouth AMD, and put out press releases/bang the publicity drum on the subject. The idea is to make it look like a grassroots problem that high-end gaming PC makers are all sick of AMD and the alleged but manufactured and false quality problems.

In return they get paid in the form of product discounts, MDF, and/or other assorted funding to a total directly based on the sales of AMD products they either had or would likely have had. On top of this they also gain earlier access to Maxwell GPUs than other OEMs. The total is of course more than the total of AMD sales so it is a net financial positive although some may be indirect, not that it needs saying, and it is what we were hinting at in our earlier article but could not say at the time without further confirmation.
......

Tier 0 as a program was meant to be rolled out to other vendors with similar sweeteners, early Maxwell access, and assorted other publicity boosts. Origin PC was only the first company to bite, as SemiAccurate said in our earlier article others were similarly approached. Unfortunately for them whether they signed off on it or not, the program is now officially dead. It seems that no less than Jen-Hsun himself canned it after the board, “reamed him” over Tier 0. I guess that unethical and likely illegal behavior wasn’t a problem at Nvidia, the board calling him on it however was. Doesn’t that say a lot?

https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/07/nvidias-program-get-oems-like-origin-pc-dump-amd-called-tier-0/

 

[Grall]

They have, drivers don't sell hardware, prices do.

But, AMD has no control over pricing. In fact, in some/many countries it would be illegal for them to even try.

I don't see how you can reasonably fault them for this.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I'd also argue about the "drivers don't sell hardware" as nVidia pushed their drivers as "the golden standard" for just too many bloody years not for it to have had SOME affect.

Prices are probably more important too, but you don't think good drivers and driver support are a critical part too? I'd disagree with you on that one.

 

[BRiT]

As long as the drivers aren't catching the video cards on fire, do they really matter that much anymore?

 

[CarstenS]

But, AMD has no control over pricing. In fact, in some/many countries it would be illegal for them to even try.

They cannot control pricing for their partners, but they provide or withhold incentives for them to work hard in order to match a desired price point at least for a certain period of time.

I guess there are always deals going on beneath the surface regardless whether they are called Tier 0, GitG, GPP or don't have a name at all. While generally not being desireable for the consumer, some do have their benefits like low launch prices, quality control wrt to fan noise and generally sufficient board design to provide enough and stable power to the GPU.

Regarding Sapphire: isn't the relationship between AMD & them much much closer than merely AIB?Like its been my understanding Sapphire designs (or has a big part in the design) & manufactures the reference PCBs going back to DX8 times -> understandable there would be closer ties & a bunch of exclusivity involved.

Sapphire basically IS a gaming brand for AMD [edit: -GPU based cards already (as much as Zotac is for Nvidia, just look up their parent company). From the other mixed AIBs, at least Asus already has a strong gaming brand (ROG) and could continue to sell AMD cards under their own name. Gigabyte is working towards this as well with Aorus, only MSI is lacking in this regard with only different branches like Gaming, Lightning etc.

 

[CSI PC]

I resent that, I happen to like/respect Charlie Demerjian and think he does some fantastic journalism. Not arguing, just disagreeing on a point.


Also I have discovered I'm in terrible forum shape! Following the thread at [H] about this has been a lot harder than it used to be for me. :/

Someone raised an excellent point though, it isn't the first time nVidia has tried this. Anyone remember the OriginPC/nVidia "Tier 0" scandal from about 5-6 years ago?



https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/07/nvidias-program-get-oems-like-origin-pc-dump-amd-called-tier-0/

Charlie though never followed that up with what the CEO then came out and said publicly.
AMD never gave them the support (in terms of access to the higher tier products at sampling status) nor any engagement at the level they wanted and expected even when they discussed this with AMD where Nvidia offered this.
And AMD never denied the CEO claims from what I can tell.