NV30 : not so fast?

[RussSchultz]

Geek,

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Is it that the "nv30 had taped out and this is public knowledge" comment can't be substantiated?

From my recollection, the CEO stated the NV30 had taped out, and was a fall product in the previous conference call(the one where the infamous "record number of tapeouts" came from).

Which is strangely contradictory to the "hasn't taped out" comment in the last conferece call.

As I've said before, it really doesn't matter whether any of us believe it has or hasn't--the facts won't change to suit our beliefs, no matter how much we try.

In light of that, lets just drop this entire line of conversation until it becomes apparent--whether in a month, or 3 months, or whatever. It has become very tedious to rehash this discussion daily, on every thread here on the forum.

 

[Guest]

I certainly agree that nVidia is known for its aggressive PR. That was certainly the case a couple of years ago when it was headlined across a few tech sites. Whether or not that has changed I can't say for sure but I would bet that much of the same attitude remains. With that said however, understand that people make mistakes or unintentionally espouse information that is incorrect or misunderstood. I believe HardOCP had stated that the NV30 came back at .15um and that even Doomtrooper said the same so you certainly can't claim that only nVidiots are claiming it taped out already.

As for me I'm still unclear as to what state NV30 development is in but frankly I actually don't care much since it only matters to me when I could possibly get one in my grubby little hands.

Hrm, would an nv30 at .15um require a different design then one at .13um? I simply don't believe that there ever was a .15um nv30. The reason nvidia is building at the .13um is because that is what the design called for IMHO. They are having to do this because the Radeon 9700 is that much more powerful. Nvidia has been forced to go to the .13um process early. To me all that matters is that it isn't taped out and nvidia is in the process of "wrapping it up"..

I expect that nvidia had a part at the .15um process but it turned out to be unexceptable in the light of the Radeon 9700 strength. They would have learned about the Radeon 9700 around about the time of the Doom 3 showing where they lost whatever part they had to show with Doom 3 then quickly realized that their next part was not going to be the speed king.. so they rushed into the NV30 design.

ATI kept info regarding the Radeon 9700 under wraps pretty good until its launch. Nvidia simply didn't have anything for once to respond with. Much of this is speculation but this is how I see most of what has transpired likely occurred. Nvidia according to reports was late in sending its design of the nv30 to TSMC. Further it is heavily rumored that the .13um process is fairly unrealiable....

How me making these conclusions makes me a f@nboy is beyond me.

 

[Guest]

Geek,

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Is it that the "nv30 had taped out and this is public knowledge" comment can't be substantiated?

From my recollection, the CEO stated the NV30 had taped out, and was a fall product in the previous conference call(the one where the infamous "record number of tapeouts" came from).

Which is strangely contradictory to the "hasn't taped out" comment in the last conferece call.

As I've said before, it really doesn't matter whether any of us believe it has or hasn't--the facts won't change to suit our beliefs, no matter how much we try.

In light of that, lets just drop this entire line of conversation until it becomes apparent--whether in a month, or 3 months, or whatever. It has become very tedious to rehash this discussion daily, on every thread here on the forum.

Yes that is what I am upset about. But this particular aspect was never addressed. We hashed the whole matter out in that thread and in the end we concluded that according to nvidia the NV30 had in fact been taped out. If I were an investor of nvidia stock I would have used this information as proof positive that in fact nvidia did have the chip taped out and this would have assured me that nvidia would have the part for the fall. But then nvidia has a pop CC and annouces under heavy questioning that the nv30 is not taped out. WTF is that? In the end though you are correct agian and I am a rambling f@nboy because there will be no way to know if the nv30 will make the fall season untill nvidia says it will or won't. Of course you could have made the same sort of conclusion about the nforce chipset last year that was horribly late. Why arn't some who have perpetuated what nvidia has told them upset about the misleading information?..... That said I will end my f@nboy rant and not bother with the subject further. I will take what "sources close to nvidia" have to say with an even larger grain of salt in light of all this. Hopefully this garbage doesn't continue or I will really look like a "f@nboy".

 

[pikkachu]

LOL,this is just way too funny hehe

1) Testiculus Giganticus posted something about
nv30 beta board and some performance stuff then...

2) MikeC reads it and paraphrased then posted @nvnews
as "I ran across information from what seems to be
a reliable source,but would rather not provide a link"
and then...

3) Qroach copy and pasted from nvnews and tried to
pass it off as some sort proof of nv30 beta boards.

4) which all info originated from Testiculus Giganticus.

hmm,now who'd i believe? nvidia's CEO or some forum poster?

 

[Galilee]

So MikeC's informer is Testiculus Giganticus? Ehh

 

[SteveG]

Geek - Please give it a rest, you seem to be the only person still upset about this "tape out" question. Regardless of those who argue that there is a particular technical meaning of "tape out", it's clear that among the general population there are various interpretations (initial? final rev?), so there's one logical explanation for the contradictions.

But let me try to understand your argument: "Evil nVidia deliberately lied about NV30 being taped out when it wasn't. Then, just proving further how evil they are, they told the truth and said it wasn't taped out." Can you explain exactly what did they gain from this example of "aggressive PR"? Other than tons of criticism on the Beyond3D message boards? We can believe your evil corporation conspiracy theories, or we can simply accept that there was a misunderstanding. Most have done the latter and gotten on with their lives.

Here's an observation: You rant on and on about a contradiction in Nvidia's statements about NV30. You continue to bring up the NV30 pics "debacle", when it was made clear that this wasn't anything of Nvidia's doing, it was someone's misinterpretation of some picture captions. Yet in this same time period, ATI puts out a press release claiming 35%-50% performance increase in certain games for their new drivers (I just checked and noted that you even started the B3D thread on this topic), but noone in these forums can substantiate anything approaching this level of performance increase. So why no Geek_2000 rants about ATI's "aggressive PR"? Why no mention of the "Catalyst 2.2 debacle"? For some odd reason, you actively seek out and point out faults with Nvidia, and ignore faults with any other IHV. So please stop wondering why people call you a fanboi - you obviously view the 3D world through ATI-colored glasses.

 

[Guest]

Geek - Please give it a rest, you seem to be the only person still upset about this "tape out" question. Regardless of those who argue that there is a particular technical meaning of "tape out", it's clear that among the general population there are various interpretations (initial? final rev?), so there's one logical explanation for the contradictions.

But let me try to understand your argument: "Evil nVidia deliberately lied about NV30 being taped out when it wasn't. Then, just proving further how evil they are, they told the truth and said it wasn't taped out." Can you explain exactly what did they gain from this example of "aggressive PR"? Other than tons of criticism on the Beyond3D message boards? We can believe your evil corporation conspiracy theories, or we can simply accept that there was a misunderstanding. Most have done the latter and gotten on with their lives.

Here's an observation: You rant on and on about a contradiction in Nvidia's statements about NV30. You continue to bring up the NV30 pics "debacle", when it was made clear that this wasn't anything of Nvidia's doing, it was someone's misinterpretation of some picture captions. Yet in this same time period, ATI puts out a press release claiming 35%-50% performance increase in certain games for their new drivers (I just checked and noted that you even started the B3D thread on this topic), but noone in these forums can substantiate anything approaching this level of performance increase. So why no Geek_2000 rants about ATI's "aggressive PR"? Why no mention of the "Catalyst 2.2 debacle"? For some odd reason, you actively seek out and point out faults with Nvidia, and ignore faults with any other IHV. So please stop wondering why people call you a fanboi - you obviously view the 3D world through ATI-colored glasses.

OK I already said that I wasn't going to bother anymore with the subject but since you insist.

Yes I am upset because the information conflicts. I never once claimed that nvidia was "evil" so forget about trying to exaggerate what my points are. Further it was no more then a few weeks back nvidia raised its guidance. Is this not misleading? There is an explanation but it is being obscured, the truth is something that happens it isn't just a matter of perspective. So there is logic/truth somewhere in the mess that everyone is trying to sort out.

You make it sound as though I went on and on about how great the drivers were..when in fact learning that the 50% increase is in Open GL at high res I had little or nothing to say about the matter. I simply don't think that this is anywhere close to some of the tricks that nvidia has pulled lately and it is truely not as noteworthy as I had intially thought. The reason that nvidia is my target is because they make themselves the target with the crap they pull off. Its people like you who turn a blind eye to it and enable them to continue their dirty tricks. So please spare me the charactorization with regards to my "f@nboyism" because really I see no reason to suggest this. Nvidia makes ok products but they don't really live up to the hype... ATI makes just as good if not better (sometimes worse.) products. Bah I don't have to prove nothing to you.. My opinions are mine.

 

[DemoCoder]

Most common symptom of fanboyism:

"Yes, company Y is evil, but I don't think company X's evil deeds are anywhere as evil as company Y"

You are transparent Geek.

 

[Althornin]

Most common symptom of fanboyism:

"Yes, company Y is evil, but I don't think company X's evil deeds are anywhere as evil as company Y"

You are transparent Geek.

Your post doesnt exactly help "put out the fires".

 

[RussSchultz]

Of course not. He's evil.

 

[Testiculus Giganticus]

Sorry for posting a piece of info that may have shed some light on the question. In the future I shall refrain from doing that. On the whole tape out issue: the term tape out can be given various interpretations in the way of turning it to your favour. YES, the NV30 metal is not final, so you may say that it hasn`t TAPED out. Still, there have been a number of revisions and the latest was quite close to what was expected of the chip, but it is not known if the revision that should come back very soon will be FINAL. If my nick makes you think I`m not legit, go ahead, my paycheck will still come from where it comes now, even if forum people don`t believe i actually work for LeadTek. Again, sorry for fueling the flame.

 

[darkman]

Sorry for posting a piece of info that may have shed some light on the question. In the future I shall refrain from doing that. On the whole tape out issue: the term tape out can be given various interpretations in the way of turning it to your favour. YES, the NV30 metal is not final, so you may say that it hasn`t TAPED out. Still, there have been a number of revisions and the latest was quite close to what was expected of the chip, but it is not known if the revision that should come back very soon will be FINAL. If my nick makes you think I`m not legit, go ahead, my paycheck will still come from where it comes now, even if forum people don`t believe i actually work for LeadTek. Again, sorry for fueling the flame.

TG, don't pay any attention to them. You provided your piece of information which is more than can be said for many vocal people in this forum. It's up to other people to see what they make of it.

Cheers,
Darkman

 

[Qroach]

Don't worry about it Testiculus. geek is evil .

 

[Althornin]

Of course not. He's evil.

LOL!!
Just like nVidia!
nVidia and Democoder, the Evil Duo out to wreak havoc upon an unsuspecting (except for geek_2002) world.

 

[Wintermane]

lalala

Yeesh nvidea didnt contradict itself. Has it taped out and has there been any tape outs is a very different question.

Yes there have been tape outs no its not taped out no it wont be untill the last day possible because they know the exact deadline and wont stop working on it till then.

 

[Guest]

Of course not. He's evil.

No.... I am satan

I am out to destroy all that is holy and good.. hehe.

 

[Pete]

You make it sound as though I went on and on about how great the drivers were..when in fact learning that the 50% increase is in Open GL at high res I had little or nothing to say about the matter. I simply don't think that this is anywhere close to some of the tricks that nvidia has pulled lately and it is truely not as noteworthy as I had intially thought. The reason that nvidia is my target is because they make themselves the target with the crap they pull off. Its people like you who turn a blind eye to it and enable them to continue their dirty tricks. So please spare me the charactorization with regards to my "f@nboyism" because really I see no reason to suggest this. Nvidia makes ok products but they don't really live up to the hype... ATI makes just as good if not better (sometimes worse.) products. Bah I don't have to prove nothing to you.. My opinions are mine.

I disagree with everything in that paragraph except that your opinions are yours (though even that is debatable ). The 50% increase seems to be a lie (or "selective example"). This is more than nV pulled, as no one has defined "tape out" yet, so everyone's arguing from a different definition of the word. nVidia's products have lived up to their hype in that they were the fastest products of their time for the last few years running, while ATi's have consistently underperformed (obviously they are improving, their turn-around culminating with the 9700). Also, you use a double negative.

Flame on!

TG, thx for the info. People like you, mufu, ben, and others have fed the huge interest in this forum by posting a lot of juicy advance info/analysis. Don't be discouraged by ______s.

(BTW, mods, are you going to allow the word "______" again? I'm fighting the urge to be sick everytime I use the word "fanboi" or see "f@nboy." I can understand moderating against ad-homs, but the term fanboy is not offensive in and of itself. If it's correctly applied, it's a statement of fact, not derogatory opinion. People may view ______s in a negative light, just as they view people who litter negatively, but you can't mod what ppl think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[Maverick]

Yeesh nvidea didnt contradict itself. Has it taped out and has there been any tape outs is a very different question.

Yes there have been tape outs no its not taped out no it wont be untill the last day possible because they know the exact deadline and wont stop working on it till then.

I have two problems with this interpretation. Firstly, it means that you can't really say that you've "taped out", because when you do it, you can't know that it's going to be the final silicon until you've got it back and have thoroughly tested it. Secondly, if there have been tape outs, then surely it would have been in the CEO's best interest to say that, rather than suffer the "Oh no, they haven't taped out, NV30 is going to be late" reaction that we've seen.

Of course, I'm not saying that this isn't what has happened, just that it seems a bit, well, dumb.

 

[Althornin]

(BTW, mods, are you going to allow the word "______" again? I'm fighting the urge to be sick everytime I use the word "fanboi" or see "f@nboy." I can understand moderating against ad-homs, but the term <bleep> is not offensive in and of itself. If it's correctly applied, it's a statement of fact, not derogatory opinion. People may view ______s in a negative light, just as they view people who litter negatively, but you can't mod what ppl think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Yeah, i agree.

 

[stevem]

...even if forum people don`t believe i actually work for LeadTek...

There is plenty of information in the channel. Most is quite fickle... You need not have revealed your affiliation to be credible, IMHO...