Nintendo still deciding on HD support for Revolution?

c_k_i_t

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Someone ask Matt about HD support for Revolution, and his responds was that Nintendo is still deciding about HD support and that nintendo is in talks with both ATI and IBM for a solution.

Isn't too late for Nintendo to change the hardware? And how are they gonna do it, by bumping up the speed or adding more processors?

source: http://cube.ign.com/mail (Sep 7, 2005)

"First off, love the site. Gotta love the N-query as well. I was wondering do you think there is a possibility that Nintendo will offer HD to Revolution owners that want to shell out a little extra cash? Kind of like what they are doing with the DVD option. They could store the HD option in the Revolution and if you wanted to play your games in HD you could simply download it to your system. Is this even possible, or is HD only created directly to the game? To me this seems like a great idea, but I don't know if it's possible...if it was I don't see why Nintendo wouldn't do this. Your thoughts?

Matt responds: Realistically, I don't think so. Nintendo has already stated that Revolution will be able to output in 480p, which means that it will have component hook-ups. What that also means is that the physical hardware is already in place to do high-definition games. However, since Nintendo has openly said that HD is out, what that tells me is that the computing power to do it is not there. Processing 720p and 1080i/1080p resolutions requires faster CPU/GPUs, as well as more RAM. There's no way Nintendo will sell upgrades of that nature in order to enable HD playback. On a side note, I still haven't given up on HD support. Rumors abound suggest that Nintendo is still deciding and that it has, in fact, banged its head with IBM and ATI in order to figure out a solution."
 
Matt C. said:
Realistically, I don't think so. Nintendo has already stated that Revolution will be able to output in 480p, which means that it will have component hook-ups. What that also means is that the physical hardware is already in place to do high-definition games.
That's sort of a leap in logic that's not necessarily warranted from Matt, who is not exactly the most technically educated person. Whatever video encoder chip is on there - probably of ATi's making - may only output 480i and 480p for all we know. The X360's chip can't output 1080p, for instance.
 
I HOPE they atleast go with 480p. I can honestly live with that. Nintendo games are always vibrant and colorful, having them in atleast 480p WOULD have benifits to the gameplay experience (Wind Waker in 480p compared to 480i is a huge difference).

Nintendo going with 480i, to me, would be a step backards from Gamecube (visually).
 
BlueTsunami said:
I HOPE they atleast go with 480p. I can honestly live with that. Nintendo games are always vibrant and colorful, having them in atleast 480p WOULD have benifits to the gameplay experience (Wind Waker in 480p compared to 480i is a huge difference).

Nintendo going with 480i, to me, would be a step backards from Gamecube (visually).

BT, in case you aren't in the know 480p is already "confirmed." Why some individuals thought they wouldn't even include this (including Matt C.) resolution on their next-gen console is utterly ludicrous. They've been vacillating on the decision whether to include higher than 480p resolution/s, when in truth all they need is 720p imo. (due heavily to negative fan backlash regarding the no HD announcement) Hey PC-E you remembered my GT4 comparison, I'm flattered. The beastly PS3 won't see many games in true 1080p either truthfully, a fluid framerate at that res. is a high hurdle indeed.
 
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Inane_Dork said:
That's sort of a leap in logic that's not necessarily warranted from Matt, who is not exactly the most technically educated person. Whatever video encoder chip is on there - probably of ATi's making - may only output 480i and 480p for all we know. The X360's chip can't output 1080p, for instance.


Yes, it can, it's just not the standard resolution which MS has set.

ATI did clarify that although Microsoft isn't targetting 1080p (1920 x 1080)
as a resolution for games, their GPU would be able to handle the resolution
with 4X AA enabled at no performance penalty.

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2423&p=2
 
Inane_Dork is right. The output chip can't handle 1080p, even though the GPU has no hardware limits to rendering resolutio as your quote shows.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Inane_Dork is right. The output chip can't handle 1080p, even though the GPU has no hardware limits to rendering resolutio as your quote shows.


No, you are both wrong.

The output chip CAN handle 1080p, what the 360 lacks at this time is the HDMI output cables.

From Todd Holmdahl of Microsoft:

Xbox 360 does not support 1080p at this time. It’s an incremental improvement at an astronomical expense, and we don’t see consumers clamoring for 1080p TVs yet. We will continue evaluate the market and deliver the capability when and if customers want it.

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/


Now, how are they going to deliver that capability in the future if the chip itself cannot do it? The answer is, the chip CAN do 1080p, and it's only lacking an HDMI cable.
 
Powderkeg is correct. The GPU is capable of 1080p but microsoft did not want to make this an option.
Taken from an interview with Todd Holmdahl
What type of video connections will the Xbox 360 support right out of the box? What other options will be available?

Todd Holmdahl: Out of the box (North America), we will support component video (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) and composite video (all worldwide variations). Aftermarket AV cables will add support for S-video, enhanced SCART RGB, and VGA.

So, you are supporting VGA this time in the retail console?

Todd Holmdahl: Yes.


All those connections (composite, component, s-video and VGA) have one thing in common: they carry the video signal in an analog format. What about digital connections such DVI or HDMI? Will there be A/V packs with DVI and/or HDMI connections? If not, will you consider offering that in the future?

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 will support HD component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD-ready TV on the market today. We’re poised to hit the sweet spot of the HD market at launch and as the market matures, and we will provide an HDMI for our customers when it makes sense. The reality is, you don’t need HDMI for HD gaming.



Regarding DVD movie playback, will you upscale standard definition DVDs to 720p or 1080i like modern DVD players? Will the Xbox 360 play WMVHD DVDs?

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 will play high definition video in VC1 (WMVHD) format. We are currently evaluating upscaling standard definition DVDs, but have not yet confirmed it for launch.



I understand the choice of 720p over 1080i because of the fast-motion action sequences involved in gaming; a progressive scan picture is better than an interlaced one for this case, but lately we have seen more and more 1080p capable displays, especially DLP-based flat screens (although 1080p doesn’t belong to ATSC’s specifications for HDTV). The question is, will the Xbox 360 be able to offer a 1080p signal? Is the Xbox 360 GPU powerful enough to render games up to that resolution at playable framerates?

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 offers choice for both the game developer and the end consumer. The game developer can create their game in any resolution. The consumer can request any output resolution (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). The Xbox 360’s advanced video scaler will scale the game’s native resolution to the end consumer’s requested resolution with extremely high quality output. Bottom line, the games will look amazing.

Xbox 360 does not support 1080p at this time. It’s an incremental improvement at an astronomical expense, and we don’t see consumers clamoring for 1080p TVs yet. We will continue evaluate the market and deliver the capability when and if customers want it.
Looks like they can if they wanted but I dont know about this astronomical expense hes cryting about. A hit in performance sure but adding the output should not hike the price where it would be an issue.
 
Powderkeg said:
No, you are both wrong.

The output chip CAN handle 1080p, what the 360 lacks at this time is the HDMI output cables.

From Todd Holmdahl of Microsoft:

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/


Now, how are they going to deliver that capability in the future if the chip itself cannot do it? The answer is, the chip CAN do 1080p, and it's only lacking an HDMI cable.

where does he tell that it's just lacking an HDMI cable ?
he just didn't, you made it..

if it was just a matter of HDMI cable, the guy wouldn't use the terms "astronomical expense".
 
Magnum PI said:
where does he tell that it's just lacking an HDMI cable ?
he just didn't, you made it..

if it was just a matter of HDMI cable, the guy wouldn't use the terms "astronomical expense".


Monster HDMI cables cost over $100. Microsoft would have a lot of trouble providing relatively high quality cables for under $50 right now. $75 would be more likely, and I don't think MS will make any friends trying to sell video cables for $75.

There are several factors that you have to consider. HDMI is not in very high demand, so whatever you make is barely going to sell. Most places won't stock it, you're going to have a very limited production run, and it uses a proprietary connection to the 360, which means you are going to have to have special parts and can't use a generic cable.

However, if they wait a couple of years HDMI will be in more demand. It will be in more houses, and more new TVs will be sold with it. That means they could produce more cables at once which makes the price per cable cheaper. They could possibly offer $39 HDMI cables, the same price as their other cables.

It's not just the cost, it's the cost right now, in the specific situation MS is in right now. And it's the cost relative to the cost of the other video cables that they have.
 
Powderkeg said:
Monster HDMI cables cost over $100. Microsoft would have a lot of trouble providing relatively high quality cables for under $50 right now. $75 would be more likely, and I don't think MS will make any friends trying to sell video cables for $75.

There are several factors that you have to consider. HDMI is not in very high demand, so whatever you make is barely going to sell. Most places won't stock it, you're going to have a very limited production run, and it uses a proprietary connection to the 360, which means you are going to have to have special parts and can't use a generic cable.

However, if they wait a couple of years HDMI will be in more demand. It will be in more houses, and more new TVs will be sold with it. That means they could produce more cables at once which makes the price per cable cheaper. They could possibly offer $39 HDMI cables, the same price as their other cables.

It's not just the cost, it's the cost right now, in the specific situation MS is in right now. And it's the cost relative to the cost of the other video cables that they have.

You are an ignorant fool if you buy any monster cable for anywhere near the advertised price. The amount of profit companies make on cables is HUGE. "Quailty" cables are usually highly overpriced. You want a "quality" but cheapely priced HDMI cable? Try here http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp
 
a688 said:
You are an ignorant fool if you buy any monster cable for anywhere near the advertised price. The amount of profit companies make on cables is HUGE. "Quailty" cables are usually highly overpriced. You want a "quality" but cheapely priced HDMI cable? Try here http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp

You are also an ignorant fool if you think the 360 video cables are just generic cables. Do you plug your Optcal Audio cable directly into your Xbox or Xbox 360, or do you plug it into a dongle that's part of the cable?

Any HDMI cables that MS offered has to include the dongle converter for the Optical Audio, Analog Audio, and HDMI outputs. There is much more than just a cheap cable.
 
Well, if MS is going to provide HDMI then they'll need an HDMI output, no? I don't believe the scaler could be intermediating between that. So, essentially you'd have an analog dongle thing and an HDMI out. If they can be combined and MS would want that, then yeah you're Powder.

By the by, thanks for the site a6, it'll come in handy for PS3 cabling to my lcd monitor. Now if I could only figure out how to do that with my PS2 and GC... ... fumumu
 
Why would you need HDMI-cable to show 1080p??, My pc is connected to the monitor with vga-cable and highest res I can put on is 2048x1536
 
Dr Evil said:
Why would you need HDMI-cable to show 1080p??, My pc is connected to the monitor with vga-cable and highest res I can put on is 2048x1536


Because 1080p support and consoles are generally the domain of televisions, not PC monitors, and HDTV's require HDMI input for 1080p.
 
Mefisutoferesu said:
Well, if MS is going to provide HDMI then they'll need an HDMI output, no? I don't believe the scaler could be intermediating between that. So, essentially you'd have an analog dongle thing and an HDMI out. If they can be combined and MS would want that, then yeah you're Powder.

The GPU renders a digital image. The output chip determins if that should be converted to analog or left in it's digital form. It is the cable dongle that tells the 360 what type of output to use. The dongle doesn't contain a converter, it simply informs the 360 what type of output signal to use.

And as I said, the cable dongle also contains the Audio converter, which must be able to switch output between analog, optical digital, and HDMI audio.


My point is it's not just a cable, and it's price can't be compared with the absolute cheapest off-brand generic cable you can find.
 
No no, I don't think I was being specific enough. I'm talking about the scaler. I don't know if it can be combined with a digital signal that's been processed through a TSMC. More over, I'm not sure if a scaler can supprt HDCP. Assuming I'm not crazy and i'm right, then MS would have the whole proprietary dongle thing solely for analog signals and have the HDMI out be for digital signals. As such, you could just buy a cheap little 10-20 dollar 3ft HDMI cable and be done with it.

Also, where did you read that the dongle can output HDMI audio, and optical audio? I imagine that's what the optical audio out on the Xbox is for. Basically, how do you know the dongle can do all that? Also, on a purely technical note, what point is there to putting the audio converter in the dongle, that doesn't make sense to me. ZIt should be a part of the hardware.

And, fair enough, the dongle... I'm starting to hate that word... isn't some generic off the shelf cable, so their isn't any competition to drive the price down, but what makes you think that makes it expensive? As A6 noted, cables are pretty overpriced as it is. More likely a high price would be MS trying to profit, no?

I dunno, it seems like all of this would have been much easier if MS just went with stander outputs. Sometimes all in one isn't the best answer.
 
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